Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[Dan416]

Changing of any other rapid transit line to heavy rail may require the same. In other words, nothing for another 4 years, which would delay the DRT as well. By which time, the question would become do we do the DRT before or after the others.

Changing Eglinton would require new subway trains but aside from that, the engineering work is already done for the subway tunnel.

Sheppard's EA is completed at least to Victoria Park, if not further (anyone know how far the existing EA goes?), although a new one would probably be needed to Downsview.

The only subway projects that need an EA are the DRL (obviously) and the Danforth line if they follow a new alignment to STC rather than the SRT alignment.

 

[rbt]

Changing Eglinton would require new subway trains but aside from that, the engineering work is already done for the subway tunnel.

Agreed. Eglinton could more or less meet its original timeline.

Sheppard's EA is completed at least to Victoria Park, if not further (anyone know how far the existing EA goes?), although a new one would probably be needed to Downsview.

Sheppard engineering would need to be done from scratch which is the consuming portion. Actual EA overhead is only a couple of months, the engineering piece needs to be done anyway. We learned this on Eglinton BTW, which did have a shortened EA process but is taking just as long as Spadina did to get started.

Ford may opt to run an EA on both simply because he indicated he would listen to Torontonians". The best way to show he is listening is to run an old school EA where you present subway, BRT, doing nothing, and LRT as options and go from there using actual feedback instead of pushing "the Ford solution", even if it might be the right solution.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Downtown Rapid Transit Study may delay any decision on streetcars, depending on what the study recommends.

They could say incorporate the streetcars into a DRT, or have the DRT as an express line with streetcars doing local service, or have a DRT replace each streetcar line (unlikely), or have the DRT as a local line and replacing some of the streetcar lines with buses.

My preference is to make the DRT an express with streetcars supplying local service.

 

[nfitz]

My preference is to make the DRT an express with streetcars supplying local service.

That's what we need ... more express-like subways.

This is what London has been doing for years ... the new tubes in the last 40 years or so have been getting stops further and further apart.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Just a thought? How about a GO stop at Dufferin. It could replace or augment the seasonal only Exhibition station and serve Liberty villiage.

 

[nfitz]

Just a thought? How about a GO stop at Dufferin. It could replace or augment the seasonal only Exhibition station and serve Liberty villiage.

The Lakeshore Dufferin (which was replaced by Exhibition years ago), or the Georgetown/Milton Dufferin (which is the new overpass).

Exhibition Station has had year-round service for quite a long time now - and already serves Liberty Village.

 

[Dan416]

The Downtown Rapid Transit Study may delay any decision on streetcars, depending on what the study recommends.

They could say incorporate the streetcars into a DRT, or have the DRT as an express line with streetcars doing local service, or have a DRT replace each streetcar line (unlikely), or have the DRT as a local line and replacing some of the streetcar lines with buses.

My preference is to make the DRT an express with streetcars supplying local service.

Please just call it the DRL. Calling it DRT is silly when DRT already stands for Durham Region Transit and we've been calling it the Downtown Relief Line for like 20 years already.

 

[leopetr]

Changing Eglinton would require new subway trains but aside from that, the engineering work is already done for the subway tunnel.

Not necessarily.

The pocket tracks are designed for 3 car LRT trains (~4 car subway trains). These are necessary for automated train operation. I'm guessing TTC would want to lengthen them for 6 car subway trains.

The stations are also designed 3 car LRT trains. TTC may or may not want to lengthen them to allow for 6 car subway trains.

Do the stations have room for turnstiles? I'm not sure if they were part of the plan for the LRT stations. If they don't, they will need larger concourse areas. (If you can convince TTC to switch to POP for the subway, more power to you.)

TTC will likely want more bus terminals than just Keele and Don Mills if this is built as a subway line.

The tunnel only goes from Black Creek to Laird (?). Extending the tunnel to Jane and Don Mills would require modifications.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Not necessarily.

The pocket tracks are designed for 3 car LRT trains (~4 car subway trains). These are necessary for automated train operation. I'm guessing TTC would want to lengthen them for 6 car subway trains.

The stations are also designed 3 car LRT trains. TTC may or may not want to lengthen them to allow for 6 car subway trains.

Do the stations have room for turnstiles? I'm not sure if they were part of the plan for the LRT stations. If they don't, they will need larger concourse areas. (If you can convince TTC to switch to POP for the subway, more power to you.)

TTC will likely want more bus terminals than just Keele and Don Mills if this is built as a subway line.

The tunnel only goes from Black Creek to Laird (?). Extending the tunnel to Jane and Don Mills would require modifications.

Actually they are roughed in for 5 car light rail or 6 car heavy rail trains.

 

[gweed123]

The Downtown Rapid Transit Study may delay any decision on streetcars, depending on what the study recommends.

They could say incorporate the streetcars into a DRT, or have the DRT as an express line with streetcars doing local service, or have a DRT replace each streetcar line (unlikely), or have the DRT as a local line and replacing some of the streetcar lines with buses.

My preference is to make the DRT an express with streetcars supplying local service.

With both in the tunnel (ie 4 tracked), or just the subway in the tunnel and the streetcars running surface?

 

[Dan416]

Actually they are roughed in for 5 car light rail or 6 car heavy rail trains.

This was my understanding as well.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

The other issue is storage. Where would Eglinton heavy-rail trains be kept and maintained? The ony existing nearby facility is Davisville, which would require the construction of connecting tunnels at Yonge and Eglinton (or perhaps at Eglinton West if Wilson is to be their base), both of which are significant undertakings.

 

[nfitz]

Presumably it would need a new yard; I'd think where they are currently planning the LRV yard.

And I'd think that if it was heavy-rail, there would be a connection somewhere ... presumably Eglinton West, as that's what they were planning in the 1990s.

 

[reaperexpress]

The LRT lines will use a Proof of Purchase fare system, so they will be full of people who haven't paid their fare. Once these fare evaders get inside a fare-paid zone, there is no way of catching them anymore. So fare control areas (and people to run them) would be required for interchanges between Subway and LRT lines. Converting Eglinton and DRL to subway would vastly simplify the transfers at Pape, Eglinton and Eglinton West by negating the need for new fare control zones. These transfer stations would be cheaper to build and operate, as well as more convenient for travelers.

 

[doady]

So, uh, is the Downtown Rapid Transit line the DRL? Or is it something else? I'm confused.

It's weird that I've never seen this thread before.