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Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

Optimal solution should be...

  • The construction of new rapid transit lines ; Downtown Rapid Transit (DRT) line

    Votes: 193 76.3%

  • Expanded GO Rail capacity (including additional GO stations in the City of Toronto)

    Votes: 15 5.9%

  • Improvements in streetcar services to enhance shorter-distance transit accessibility downtown

    Votes: 4 1.6%

  • Others (Some/all of the above, other ideas)

    Votes: 41 16.2%
  • Total voters
    253
Northern Magus said:
But I think you're right: a "North York White Elephant Line" would probably just add to the overcrowding that's already on Yonge.
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Would it matter if they had already relieved Yonge with the DRL?

Though I'm not sure it would. How many people are going to head east to Yonge instead of west to Downsview if they build the Sheppard West subway as a spur to the Spadina line? I'd think it wouldn't be that much different from those who currently use bus for this. I'd think there was some significant number of people on the Sheppard line though, that instead of changing at Sheppard/Yonge to get to King, would simply stay on the train, and get a one-seat ride to King. Or St. George.
 
Tulse said:
The inclusion of the Sheppard extension may be savvy politically, but I wonder if connecting the Spadina leg to the Yonge leg might not actually make the situation on the latter worse.
Click to expand...

Most likely will but probably not noticeably. Very few riders start on Sheppard West and Eglinton will have already made the Spadina -> Yonge transfer possible north of Bloor.


Metrolinx will prioritize the DRL simply for the Bathurst/Spadina station for GO/Union relief.

Next up will be the Yonge extension. McGuinty wants it, Flaherity wants it, Peel Region wants it, TTC needs more train storage that isn't at Wilson Yard, and it could help the operations budgets of more than one transit agency.


Sheppard, if promised, will be a few elections down the road.
 
nfitz said:
Would it matter if they had already relieved Yonge with the DRL?

Though I'm not sure it would.
Click to expand...

I believe your premise is incorrect, regardless of your vacillation.

The Yonge line will not actually be "relieved" by a DRL, although Yonge station will somewhat be. The problem with the Yonge line during morning rush hour is that south of St Clair, trains are already operating at full capacity and are virtually unbordable at times.

Flash forward to 2020 and increased intensification on St Clair and Eglinton. Flash further forward to 2025 the possibility of an extended Yonge line bringing on even more riders. The DRL will siphon off east end riders from Yonge-Bloor station only, and if intensification continues in the west end of the city, there will still be the crowding problems at that station which we have now, and trains will potentially be at capacity south of Eglinton.

The DRL might arguably be best thought of as a "Danforth Relief Line", especially if built out to Coxwell or Woodbine. But it still won't relieve ovecrowding on the Yonge Line that originates north of St Clair. At the same time, if downtown intensification south of Bloor continues, realistically these people might very well not be able to board the Yonge line at all, depending on their destination.

Unfortunately the DRL won't relieve any of this.

So in this case, a close parallel route to the Yonge Line -- even closer than the University line -- likely stands the most reasonable prospect of providing relief and absorbing riders from the Yonge Line.
 
Northern Magus said:
The Yonge line will not actually be "relieved" by a DRL, although Yonge station will somewhat be.
Click to expand...
Then why are the Metrolinx 2031 forecasts for the number of riders in peak on the Yonge Line lower than they are today, even after the Yonge subway is extended to Richmond Hill.

I'd sooner trust the estimates made by various experts (TTC estimates also show similar), rather rough estimates those here make.
 
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Northern Magus said:
I believe your premise is incorrect, regardless of your vacillation.

The Yonge line will not actually be "relieved" by a DRL, although Yonge station will somewhat be. The problem with the Yonge line during morning rush hour is that south of St Clair, trains are already operating at full capacity and are virtually unbordable at times.

Flash forward to 2020 and increased intensification on St Clair and Eglinton. Flash further forward to 2025 the possibility of an extended Yonge line bringing on even more riders. The DRL will siphon off east end riders from Yonge-Bloor station only, and if intensification continues in the west end of the city, there will still be the crowding problems at that station which we have now, and trains will potentially be at capacity south of Eglinton.

The DRL might arguably be best thought of as a "Danforth Relief Line", especially if built out to Coxwell or Woodbine. But it still won't relieve ovecrowding on the Yonge Line that originates north of St Clair. At the same time, if downtown intensification south of Bloor continues, realistically these people might very well not be able to board the Yonge line at all, depending on their destination.

Unfortunately the DRL won't relieve any of this.

So in this case, a close parallel route to the Yonge Line -- even closer than the University line -- likely stands the most reasonable prospect of providing relief and absorbing riders from the Yonge Line.
Click to expand...
This is why future phases of the DRL should be extended north as far as Eglinton or even Sheppard. It would divert much of the east end's Yonge line ridership and would act as a true Yonge relief line.
 
Tulse said:
Councillor rallies support for double-edged subway relief plan.

Essentially, Pasternak is proposing two lines, a "North York Relief Line" extending Sheppard west to Downsview, and the DRL.

The inclusion of the Sheppard extension may be savvy politically, but I wonder if connecting the Spadina leg to the Yonge leg might not actually make the situation on the latter worse.
Click to expand...

I have to say, I really like this plan. The Sheppard West extension may just be the bone we have to throw the Ford Subway supporters in order to get the DRL. They will just hear "Sheppard Subway extension", and then support it. Especially if it's included in a package deal with the DRL (i.e. not voted on individually).

I also like the fact that Pasternak specifically mentioned using the Spadina TBMs once they were done on Spadina. Realistically, the DRL won't be good to go by 2015, but a small Sheppard West extension just might be. Their lifespan may not be enough to work on a 2nd substantial project like North Yonge or the DRL, but it will probably be enough to do a small project like Sheppard West.

And I don't think it'll make the situation worse, because it'll give Sheppard riders an option instead of forcing them all onto the Yonge line. It will also make the Sheppard line less of a white elephant, because it will actually have some substantial length to it, and become more than a feeder line of the Yonge line.

Northern Magus said:
I believe your premise is incorrect, regardless of your vacillation.

The Yonge line will not actually be "relieved" by a DRL, although Yonge station will somewhat be. The problem with the Yonge line during morning rush hour is that south of St Clair, trains are already operating at full capacity and are virtually unbordable at times.

Flash forward to 2020 and increased intensification on St Clair and Eglinton. Flash further forward to 2025 the possibility of an extended Yonge line bringing on even more riders. The DRL will siphon off east end riders from Yonge-Bloor station only, and if intensification continues in the west end of the city, there will still be the crowding problems at that station which we have now, and trains will potentially be at capacity south of Eglinton.

The DRL might arguably be best thought of as a "Danforth Relief Line", especially if built out to Coxwell or Woodbine. But it still won't relieve ovecrowding on the Yonge Line that originates north of St Clair. At the same time, if downtown intensification south of Bloor continues, realistically these people might very well not be able to board the Yonge line at all, depending on their destination.

Unfortunately the DRL won't relieve any of this.

So in this case, a close parallel route to the Yonge Line -- even closer than the University line -- likely stands the most reasonable prospect of providing relief and absorbing riders from the Yonge Line.
Click to expand...

But one thing that needs to be considered is that currently a lot of the bus routes feeding the Yonge Subway north of Bloor are split at Yonge (Eglinton and Lawrence especially), with the Sheppard Subway dumping exclusively onto Yonge.

With the opening of the Eglinton LRT, people will have the option of taking an extra 2 stops and boarding at Eglinton West instead. Same goes for if the Sheppard Subway is pushed to Downsview (or Sheppard West as it will then be known). Transferring southbound onto Yonge will be done either because a) their destination is right along the Yonge line, or b) they don't want to take the extra 2 minutes to travel to Spadina instead. I think that a lot of people would choose the extra 2 minutes if it meant avoiding the Yonge line. A 2 minute delay is certainly a big improvement on a 15 minute delay and having to switch buses in order to continue west of Yonge that currently exists.
 
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nfitz said:
Then why are the Metrolinx 2031 forecasts for the number of riders in peak on the Yonge Line lower than they are today, even after the Yonge subway is extended to Richmond Hill.

I'd sooner trust the estimates made by various experts (TTC estimates also show similar), rather rough estimates those here make.
Click to expand...

Were the ridership numbers actually lower, or just the ridership vs capacity ratio? I know that with the new trains and ATO they were going to see an increase in the capacity of the Yonge line.

I remember when I wrote my paper on the DRL that even with all of those improvements in place, the relative difference in that ratio from today vs 2031 was only a 3% decrease.

In other words, the increase in capacity is only going to slightly outpace the increase in ridership.
 
gweed123 said:
Were the ridership numbers actually lower, or just the ridership vs capacity ratio? I know that with the new trains and ATO they were going to see an increase in the capacity of the Yonge line.
Click to expand...

The busiest point on the Yonge line is Bloor to Wellesley. Any pphpd capacity restriction is felt there first. A DRL will be designed very specifically to reduce ridership at that location.

It is ceratinly possible that ridership elsewhere will increase to fill in the gap which may increase total passenger km of the line; but the peak point should still have lower ridership than it would otherwise.
 
nfitz said:
Then why are the Metrolinx 2031 forecasts for the number of riders in peak on the Yonge Line lower than they are today, even after the Yonge subway is extended to Richmond Hill.
Click to expand...

You'll have to ask them about their operating assumptions and methodology. While you're at it, why not quiz the geniuses behind the forecasts for Network 2011.

A couple of years ago a lot of people learned that an octopus can out-predict experts. And just this week, professional pollsters confidently predicted a Wildrose majority in Alberta.

Best of luck.

EDIT: this post was written under the assumption that you were accurately relaying the Metrolinx forecasts. As per Gweed's remarks, by all means let us know about that.
 
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It's good to see that the City seems to be much more intent on a DRL than they were even 5 years ago.
A DRL should go north to even getting it to Danforth would greatly relieve the Yonge line south from Bloor. Even if only 100 passengers get off a Danforth westbound train that still will greatly relieve the situation on the Yonge line and the help movement of the chaotic Yonge/Bloor station.
As far as Sheppard, I agree with him. I was never a big backer of the DM to STC extension but the Yonge to Downsview stretch is logical and result in far superior connectivity. Also when the Sheppard LRT and Spadina extension are completed traffic on the Sheppard Line will increase quite significantly. It will be a connection route for 2 subways and 2 LRTs and the money will be well spent. Also, what are the options? Certainly not LRT as you would have to take one subway and 3 LRT lines just to get drom Downsview to STC..........a ridiculous situation.
This is a modest and yet very doable and logical proposal and he's right that the Sheppard subway from Yonge to Downsview will not be a very expensive endevour.
 
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