"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?

[Dan416]

What do the computer models indicate the impact is on Bloor-Yone if the connection is at Union compared to King or Queen?

That's a great question. But as we all know, there are no computer models. So why would we even bother trying to determine an alignment if we're all just going to argue over alignments. I understand that's why we have this separate thread, but it seems to be going nowhere fast without any substantive information. Instead we're getting a lot of ado about nothing.

Maybe we need to redouble our efforts on the advocacy part and leave the alignment to the experts. (oh wait, that would be the TTC right? we're so screwed)

 

[cacruden]

I am sure where-ever they place it - it will relieve the Bloor & Yonge Stop. So any of those alignments will do the job. The task is to do as much as possible when building that line - which means opening up new areas to rapid transit (i.e. subways). The faster, and easier travel is the more people will be attracted to using the subway system. In Japan, the Tokyo station (largest rail hub), only has one subway line going through it (other stops have 3+ in quite a few places) -- so that is one example of not having all the subways converge at one point on the system. The DRL line does not need to go through Union, in fact it would be counter productive since I really see the GO system expanding - carrying much more people into Union. There is as much north of King St. as there is south of King St (main towers). Which is why I think Adelaide (with King St. exits) is a good compromise.

 

[Railization]

In Japan, the Tokyo station (largest rail hub), only has one subway line going through it (other stops have 3+ in quite a few places) -- so that is one example of not having all the subways converge at one point on the system.

There are 5 subways that stop in Ootemachi though, which is 2 blocks away from Tokyo Station, and are effectively the same area. Over-centralization of the subway network is a problem with Tokyo's subway, as passenger volumes at Ootemachi are insane as a result of so many lines converging upon it.

While Tokyo Station is a very large station in terms of tracks owned by one operator (JR East), the hubs of Shinjuku, Ikebukuro, and Shibuya see more traffic, and, except for Shibuya, have more tracks total, but divided among several different operators. All 3 have 3 subway lines, too.

 

[West Toronto Junction]

Yonge Express Subway (Y.E.S.)

I course ticked "other" to the poll, since I believe the question is too limited, "What is your prefere alignment for a new E/W subway through Downtown?"

This question arose because of the lower Yonge line being too crowded to accept more passengers from a northward extension, or anything else, infrastructure or service, that would add to demand in our busiest transit corridor.

I submit that adding capacity on the lower Yonge line and operating the new infrastructure as a mix of express and loacl services would make enought sense that it should be considered along with DRL et al, and GO Transit options.

I've started a thread at Yonge Express Subway (Y.E.S) for discussion around this point.

regards,
West Torotno Junction

 

[West Toronto Junction]

Tokyo monocentre

I suggest that at the regional scale the Tokyo monocentre is everything inside the Yamanote Line. So it is served by a huge number of train lines.

The Toronto equivalent monocentre would be the railway viaduct, University, Queen, and Yonge.

 

[nfitz]

But as we all know, there are no computer models.

??? What about the TTC reports that have discussed the use of computer models?

 

[Darren B]

Less rediculous than Danforth riders who want to take the GO walking a 1/4 mile to Danforth station

We've been through this already. Anyone physically capable of riding GO or TTC can do the switch there. It doesnt matter anyways, as very few people switch there. Most people who use GO Danforth walk there as they live in the surrounding area.

But if someone was coming from say Pape and Danforth and is looking to use the GO Lakeshore east line to Pickering, they could do the switch over from the subway to GO in faster time then it takes people to get from the street level to to the track level at Leslie station on the Sheppard line.

 

[nfitz]

We've been through this already. Anyone physically capable of riding GO or TTC can do the switch there.

Anyone physically capable can simply walk the 10 km or so downtown. But they ain't going to do it.

We have been through this before, and the conclusion was quite clear that it's not a transfer point.

 

[Darren B]

Anyone physically capable can simply walk the 10 km or so downtown. But they ain't going to do it.

We have been through this before, and the conclusion was quite clear that it's not a transfer point.

The example I gave didn't mention d/t. They may be travelling east. Its a good enough of a transfer point if one compares it to the insane amount of walking TTC subway riders need to do in the newer stations. Its fine as is.

 

[nfitz]

Its a good enough of a transfer point if one compares it to the insane amount of walking TTC subway riders need to do in the newer stations. Its fine as is.

A quarter-mile outdoor transfer is not reasonable, and is not a transfer point. There are no TTC stations with quarter-mile indoor transfers (except perhaps Spadina ... which is indeed absurd), let alone outdoors.

Of course, the other issue, is that most people on the Danforth line aren't heading to Union, and an extra fare is required as well. So it's never going to that well used.

 

[Railization]

I've started a thread at Yonge Express Subway (Y.E.S) for discussion around this point.

The engineering complications with that idea are so numerous, and the network benefit so small, that this isn't actually worth discussing, as a DRL is guaranteed to be cheaper and provide a better network.

 

[Railization]

Anyone physically capable of riding GO or TTC can do the switch there. It doesnt matter anyways, as very few people switch there.

You just answered your own question. Very few people switch there because it is a joke of a transfer. It sucks sooo bad that nobody uses it to transfer.

Kipling is an actual transfer. Kennedy is an actual transfer. Bloor/Dundas West has the potential to become an actual transfer. Danforth/Main is almost guaranteed to never become an actual transfer. And as such, the DRL should have a proper connection to GO somewhere in the Riverdale area.

 

[nfitz]

And as such, the DRL should have a proper connection to GO somewhere in the Riverdale area.

Even if Main became a proper transfer (which isn't impossible, if they engineered something, though unlikely), the DRL would need a transfer point. Can you imagine someone coming down Don Mills to Pape (or Donlands), and then heading east for 4 stations, to then change trains for Union? They'd simply stay on the DRL ... unless they are heading east.

Darren is right though, that Danforth/Main has some use for those who are heading east. But from the time I've spent in the station, many of those using the station are walking from nearby.

 

[Railization]

Even if Main became a proper transfer (which isn't impossible, if they engineered something, though unlikely), the DRL would need a transfer point. Can you imagine someone coming down Don Mills to Pape (or Donlands), and then heading east for 4 stations, to then change trains for Union? They'd simply stay on the DRL ... unless they are heading east.

I can't imagine anybody doing that because that's not the point, we're not trying to get people to do that. The point is to get people coming from the GO to transfer onto the DRL, not get people coming on the DRL to transfer to GO. Should be obvious, since GO is the one struggling with capacity and the DRL is projected to have room to spare based on Metrolinx figures.

 

[West Toronto Junction]

Yonge Express Subway (Y.E.S.)

The engineering complications with that idea are so numerous, and the network benefit so small, that this isn't actually worth discussing, as a DRL is guaranteed to be cheaper and provide a better network.

I'm happy to accept those conclusions (so numerous, so small, guaranteed cheaper, better network) if you have true engineering, transportation planning, and transport economic analysis behind those views and can cite the references.

Otherwise we're back at my point, which is this analysis has not been done, and to accept of reject the Y.E.S. hypothesis is currently based on hearsay.

WTJ