Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

That's the problem with building infrastructure based on irrational wants and insecurity rather than facts.

A statement which completely ignores the original sin of the SRT. This is also what annoys me about Steven Munro and his complaints that it should have been a streetcar line as originally imagined.

We would have all been markedly better off if this was originally built as a subway. Scarborough Centre would have probably developed a lot denser by now. Costs to build would have been half or lower. And since most of Scarborough sees STC as a natural subway terminus (I see very few people clamouring to extend past STC), LRT to Malvern and eastern Scarborough would have had far, far more support.

 

[syn]

A statement which completely ignores the original sin of the SRT. This is also what annoys me about Steven Munro and his complaints that it should have been a streetcar line as originally imagined.

We would have all been markedly better off if this was originally built as a subway. Scarborough Centre would have probably developed a lot denser by now. Costs to build would have been half or lower. And since most of Scarborough sees STC as a natural subway terminus (I see very few people clamouring to extend past STC), LRT to Malvern and eastern Scarborough would have had far, far more support.

This is where perspective seems to fly out the window. "Original sin"?!! It's transit infrastructure perfectly suited to the lower density, suburban environment it was built for. And quite frankly, it still does an excellent job. The best option would probably be to just upgrade the current line with the latest technology.

Is Kennedy well developed and dense? Warden? Kipling? Sheppard (on the Sheppard Line)?

There's no reason STC shouldn't already be developed and a lot denser by now. That has nothing to do with a lack of a subway station. Square One was built the same year as STC and it's managed to grow quite significantly without any subways nearby, nor a direct rail connection to a subway station (like the RT).

Subway's are supposed to be built where density justifies them. As we've seen, 'build it and they will come' doesn't work when it comes to transit development.

 

[ShonTron]

"Original sin?" That takes me back to my Catholic school days!

Every subway is sacred, every subway is good, every subway is needed, in your neighbourhood!

 

[Tuck]

Scarborough Centre would have probably developed a lot denser by now.

First, this line gets said a lot.

Is there any evidence to suggest that its true? There are plenty of examples in the city where this didn't happen. Downsview, much of Sheppard outside of North York Center, much of the Danforth. Really the only example of a subway encouraging density was north york center, and I suppose Yonge and Eglinton now, both of which have the "On Yonge Street" advantage.

If you look at Mississauga, they've encouraged density long before they got any form of rapid transit, and the rapid transit they did have planned was an LRT, not a subway. In Ontario thats probably the best comparison considering both are trying to build density around a mall.

Subways are not a guarantee of density. Nor are they a requirement of density. Proper urban planning is what brings density. You need to create favorable conditions and actually have a conscious plan of what you want to achieve. Zoning, tax-incentives, and yes, infrastructure, its all relevant and it all goes together. People here seem think that the one single way develop is possible is a subway but there isn't any reason to believe that is actually true.

Secondly, why does anyone care? Seriously, why does the average person in Scarborough care at all about development around the STC? Sure, the city should probably care (though building subways through green fields hasn't stopped them before...), but why do you? It seems completely irrelevant to the average person's life. The only thing that should be important is how long it takes to get to work, and at last I checked the benefits would be a couple minutes at most overall, and more time spent on a bus.

"Build a subway to encourage density." Thats a pretty damn expensive way to do it. How about we "build a subway to improve the efficiency of our transportation network so it doesn't take people two hours to get home."

 

[pman]

First, this line gets said a lot.

Is there any evidence to suggest that its true? There are plenty of examples in the city where this didn't happen. Downsview, much of Sheppard outside of North York Center, much of the Danforth. Really the only example of a subway encouraging density was north york center, and I suppose Yonge and Eglinton now, both of which have the "On Yonge Street" advantage.

If you look at Mississauga, they've encouraged density long before they got any form of rapid transit, and the rapid transit they did have planned was an LRT, not a subway. In Ontario thats probably the best comparison considering both are trying to build density around a mall.

Subways are not a guarantee of density. Nor are they a requirement of density. Proper urban planning is what brings density. You need to create favorable conditions and actually have a conscious plan of what you want to achieve. Zoning, tax-incentives, and yes, infrastructure, its all relevant and it all goes together. People here seem think that the one single way develop is possible is a subway but there isn't any reason to believe that is actually true.

Secondly, why does anyone care? Seriously, why does the average person in Scarborough care at all about development around the STC? Sure, the city should probably care (though building subways through green fields hasn't stopped them before...), but why do you? It seems completely irrelevant to the average person's life. The only thing that should be important is how long it takes to get to work, and at last I checked the benefits would be a couple minutes at most overall, and more time spent on a bus.

"Build a subway to encourage density." Thats a pretty damn expensive way to do it. How about we "build a subway to improve the efficiency of our transportation network so it doesn't take people two hours to get home."

Tuck is attempting to bring the SSE debate into the realm of the rational, and it's impossible for an objective observer to disagree with his comments. But the message from de Baeremaeker and the other SSE proponents is that this project is about equity, not facts. In particular, that the 630,000 or so Scarborough residents deserve a subway to STC because they're just as important as downtown residents. The latter have enough subways, according to Ford Nation. Population density, honest ridership projections, and cost-benefit analysis are irrelevant. Tory and Keesmaat may justify the wretched thing with fundamentally dishonest numbers, but at its heart SSE begins and ends with Ford Nation identity politics, and no amount of rational analysis will sway Council's suburban majority. This is Toronto. Tory and Council fuck up everything they touch. Mobility will only deteriorate as the population grows and we blow our limited capital budget on the projects that will move the fewest people for the greatest cost.

 

[kEiThZ]

Is Kennedy well developed and dense? Warden? Kipling? Sheppard (on the Sheppard Line)?

A red herring in my perspective. Scarborough's City Hall was at SCC. Along with the school board office, and federal building. STC was there as well. Essentially the foundation of administrative centre. Add in all the non-TTC bus services and SCC is a natural hub for Scarborough where Kennedy isn't. SCC is also a lot closer to the Geographic centre of Scarborough than Kennedy. I'll never understand why people think Kennedy was natural for development as a dense node. Even now, SCC is actually doing better with densification with just an RT stop than Kennedy.

More broadly though, they way I see it, is that the RT has simply poisoned the well for LRT. It is so bad that people have an instantaneous reaction to anything with the letters "R" And "T" in it. Had they built the subway back then, our transit discussion would be completely different, and probably wouldn't be substantially focused on the East End.

Heck, I've also said before that if they had actually extended the SRT to Malvern, as they talked about in the 90s, the LRT plan would have had more support. Instead, they propose to inconvenience people for two years for a line that barely touches the edge of Malvern, and wonder why many want the subway? People don't like to transfer. Planners need to get over that. They can either move the subway transfer point from Kennedy to STC. Or add LRT stops so that fewer people have to transfer from bus to LRT to begin with. What I don't get is why people are still flogging that dead horse of an LRT plan instead of saying why don't we build Eglinton East to Sheppard and Scarborough LRT to Morningside Heights. They could kill support for the subway overnight. Not one City Councillor has offered this alternative publicly, that I know of.

 

[steveintoronto]

It is so bad that people have an instantaneous reaction to anything with the letters "R" And "T" in it.

https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...upplementary_Reports/Response_to_Commissi.pdf

 

[BurlOak]

More broadly though, they way I see it, is that the RT has simply poisoned the well for LRT. It is so bad that people have an instantaneous reaction to anything with the letters "R" And "T" in it. Had they built the subway back then, our transit discussion would be completely different, and probably wouldn't be substantially focused on the East End.

This I don't agree with. When Ford proposed the compromise of a connected SRT with ECLRT, using LRT technology, there where no complaints from Scarborough, or any of the former boroughs.

That shows that all Scarborough wanted was to be connect to the City with a continuous rapid transit line. Transit technology was not an issue.

Too bad Councillors (and governing Liberal MPP's) put politics ahead of transit when they killed the compromise plan. Now, the well has been poisoned quite badly that I don't think anyone can solve it.

 

[kEiThZ]

When Ford proposed the compromise of a connected SRT with ECLRT, using LRT technology, there where no complaints from Scarborough, or any of the former boroughs.

Then why is the subway plan back?

Too bad Councillors (and governing Liberal MPP's) put politics ahead of transit when they killed the compromise plan.

And they wouldn't have been able to do that if there was any level of real support for LRT in the east end. They feared losing seats as soon as the SRT was shut down.

Now, the well has been poisoned quite badly that I don't think anyone can solve it.

Clearly haven't lived in Scarborough. It's the one thing every Scarberian has in common. A profound dislike for the "RT". I think the only people who truly like the SRT are:

1) Transitfans.
2) Those who don't live in Scarborough and don't ride the thing everyday.

The thing is unreliable in the winter. Loud, rickety like an amusement park ride. And the real issue: congested. Watch people line up 5 deep at Kennedy station at rush waiting for an SRT.

If you don't believe me, I'll make you this offer. I'll pay your TTC fare and buy you dinner. In return, you can stand on the platform at rush and talk to people riding the SRT. Ask them if they like it. Ask them what they think the replacement should be. Ask them if they thing, a 2 year shutdown would be worthwhile for a 2 stop extension. Heck, ask them if they'd rather have the subway. Put it on youtube without editing the answers and I will seriously buy you the fanciest dinner I can afford.

 

[kEiThZ]

@BurlOak

And just in case nobody believes me on the SRT poisoning the well, maybe you'll take Royson James' opinion instead:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...lect-of-scarborough-rt-is-shameful-james.html

When one of the engineers who designed the thing says the ride is horrible (owing to TTC neglect), I think we can say that riders are justified in their complaints.

 

[OneCity]

This I don't agree with. When Ford proposed the compromise of a connected SRT with ECLRT, using LRT technology, there where no complaints from Scarborough, or any of the former boroughs.

That shows that all Scarborough wanted was to be connect to the City with a continuous rapid transit line. Transit technology was not an issue.

Too bad Councillors (and governing Liberal MPP's) put politics ahead of transit when they killed the compromise plan. Now, the well has been poisoned quite badly that I don't think anyone can solve it.

The Province is just floating with the Political wind, which is fine. Its the City opposition that has taken the arrogant path of refusing to budge and acknowledge connectivity as a major issue to many Scarborough residents and they continues to trumpet an unwanted plan. Making the debate about technology which was pure BS and ignored the real problem which needed to be addressed. The only chance for LRT on this corridor was under that plan and because the opposition refused to take part in the recent subway discussion it may really end up being one stop on the most expensive corridor. I have little hope they will add stops to the subway and its beyond unfortunate that the City cant work together to compromise in any constructive manner to move forward. If compromise isn't in the opposition repertoire than lets just build the extension as this debate will continue to go in circles of Subway vs. transfer LRT as the middle ground was already rejected long ago

 

[OneCity]

This is exactly the kind of comment that has plagued this thread. Not debating the merits of the subway extension, not discussing updates, but one line attacks and nonfactual statements, repeating the same talking points.

As long as a certain agenda driven media continues to be applauded by a few here as they rally against the greater Scarborough voter with condescending headlines and finding selective facts to support the repetitive talking points then this will obviously be reflected in the discussion.

We can agree to disagree on how unbiased the media is here. But I undoubtedly see a clear agenda and for this reason am ready to move on with any non transfer plan as there is little hope for compromising

 

[Tuck]

And so like the cycle of the seasons, the cycle of the Urban Toronto Scarborough Subway Extension discussion begins once again.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well, I for one believe the one stop extension is stupid. What are your opinions?

 

[micheal_can]

Well, I for one believe the one stop extension is stupid. What are your opinions?

Better than just letting the RT rot to becoming unusable.