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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Amare said:
For the sake of keeping my sanity, I wont focus on the rest of the politicians who led to this situation but i'll keep the lense on John Tory.

John Tory wasted 7 years of our time focusing on his fairy dust SmartTrack idea, while other key city projects were pushed aside to pedal his deluded idea. Now the end result is Scarborough getting screwed for at least 7 years. How ironic.

And conveniently, he'll probably be decide not to run in 2022 so the blood will be off his hands so to speak.
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John Tory did well supporting transit projects that aren't his originally. King Street transit mall: certainly not his idea, but he offered support and that brought on-board some of the suburban councillors, who would be reluctant otherwise. Expanded express bus network: probably not his idea either, but he supported it and helped get it funded.

ECLRT and Finch LRT: well underway when he took the office, but he helped them advance by choosing not to mess up with them. This sounds like an odd praise, endorsing someone merely for not making it worse. But many other politicians did exactly that, messed with the projects that had been in progress, and our transit sufffered greatly.

Add to that his proper mayoral decorum, and the fact that we didn't have any frantic budget-cut debates during his tenure, and you can't call him a failure overall.

But SmartTrack and SSE are the two projects where one had to show true and relentless leadership, rather than just some common sense and the willingness to go with the flow. And this is where he utterly failed.
 
44 North said:
To be fair it's 17km from downtown to SC as the crow flies. That's not too crazy. Compare that to VMC at 20km and whatever the heck Hwy7/Yonge is supposed to be @ 21km, whom cheerleaders of extensions act like is a few blocks from downtown, and SC doesn't seem extremely far. I still support upgrading Line 3, but context (of what exists today and going forward) is important.
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Weird drive-by shot at Yonge North, but ok.
 
Rainforest said:
No contest here. But the problem is that RER with fare integration is a golden unicorn. Everyone wants it, noone was able to get it so far.

To be clear: RER with fare integration isn't just an operational subsidy to cover the revenue loss. It requires nontrivial capital upgrades to the Union rail corridor, enabling additional train trips limited to the 416 (otherwise the massive demand within the 416 will swarm the suburban GO trains and leave no space for those travelling longer distances, especially on the outgoing trips).

Essentially this is what SmartTrack concept was about, but it ended in a big puff of smoke and a few additional GO stations. No capital upgrades means no meaningful role for the trips within 416.
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I wouldn't have minded spending the extra money to get this done, especially given that the service quality provided by RER will be so much better than the subway and other modes.

Really from Day 1 we should've been done a comprehensive review of all available corridors to determine what was possible, and to generate an optimal solution to improve regional transport in and out of Scarborough. As soon as it was determined that the SRT would not get new vehicles, the LRT and subway options were immediately shortlisted, which just poisoned the for future discussions.
 
Amare said:
For the sake of keeping my sanity, I wont focus on the rest of the politicians who led to this situation but i'll keep the lense on John Tory.

John Tory wasted 7 years of our time focusing on his fairy dust SmartTrack idea, while other key city projects were pushed aside to pedal his deluded idea. Now the end result is Scarborough getting screwed for at least 7 years. How ironic.

And conveniently, he'll probably be decide not to run in 2022 so the blood will be off his hands so to speak.
Click to expand...
Torys not an idiot. Anyone who looked at his plan including himself for more than five minutes knew it wasn’t possible. But he also knew it would get him elected. That’s no different than one Ford who managed to get himself mayor and another Ford who managed to get himself premier on similar transit promises which they too knew were going nowhere. Two fords too dumb to run a family business but smart enough to make the rest of us look like real fools.
 
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When the Scarborough RT shuts down in 2023, The TTC should paint the bus lanes red on either Kennedy or Midland from Eglinton to Progress and on Progress Ave to STC and designate them as BRT/RapidTO Lanes (bus only lanes) and designate the 60 buses needed as a Line 3 BRT/rapidTO bus service from Kennedy Station to STC stopping at Lawrence and maybe Ellesmere.
 
Rainforest said:
John Tory did well supporting transit projects that aren't his originally. King Street transit mall: certainly not his idea, but he offered support and that brought on-board some of the suburban councillors, who would be reluctant otherwise. Expanded express bus network: probably not his idea either, but he supported it and helped get it funded.

ECLRT and Finch LRT: well underway when he took the office, but he helped them advance by choosing not to mess up with them. This sounds like an odd praise, endorsing someone merely for not making it worse. But many other politicians did exactly that, messed with the projects that had been in progress, and our transit sufffered greatly.

Add to that his proper mayoral decorum, and the fact that we didn't have any frantic budget-cut debates during his tenure, and you can't call him a failure overall.

But SmartTrack and SSE are the two projects where one had to show true and relentless leadership, rather than just some common sense and the willingness to go with the flow. And this is where he utterly failed.
Click to expand...
Like I said. Torys not an idiot. Once elected he supported the transit plans that made sense. To get elected he was willing to say anything.
 
Amare said:
Oh yes, for sure! We'll have streetcar tracks ripped up, subways built to Vaughan Cortellucci Hospital and Pickering, amongst loads of other idiotic decision making.

I would say Mikey will never be Mayor of Toronto, but we've already set the precedent. And if you think any actual transit would be built with these 2 goofs simultaneously in power, than i've got some more fairy dust to sell you.
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I think you are assuming too much. Firstly, did Mikey even show any interest in running? He seems to be very quiet and hardly noticeable outside his riding. I'd expect a few of more outspoken councillors to give it a try in 2022.

Plus, Jennifer Keesmaat might try again. Running against the incumbent was hard, running against other contenders should be a lot easier.

And secondly, Mikey showed no opposition to Finch LRT being built right through his riding. Thus, hard to predict what his priorities will be if he decides to run for the mayor in say 2030, based on what Rob Ford's priorities were in 2010.
 
If SRT closes in 2023, stuff needs to start happening ASAP lest we have a complete disaster in 2023.
(I have a feeling that TTC might be pressured to do another refurb, but this is assuming that doesn't happen)

What must get done before 2023:
- People have mentioned this a bunch of times but TTC-GO fare integration needs to happen. Even limited fare integration for Stouffville and LSE lines would be huge.
- Turn Progress and Midland into BRTs with complete transit priority.
- Expedite all Stouffville and LSE work. Grade separations are less important but Stouffville Line double tracking before 2023 is a must in order to run frequent service and improve capacity for the influx of ridership. (signaling too if that's needed for frequent service)

More unlikely to happen ideas, but still doable:
- Start expanding the bus terminal at Kennedy ASAP so it doesn't get completely inundated with buses. Doesn't need to be fancy since it hast to get done fast, just bus bays and basic shelters.
- Bulldoze a couple of houses beside Agincourt GO and get a bus terminal built there too. Routes like Middlefield, Nugget, Milner etc. can move there. Would work quite well with schedule integration, if GO service is 15 min frequency.
- Build a quick GO station + bus terminal at Progress. Platform + basic canopy with heating will do, since it must get done fast. Has to be at Progress vs Ellesmere or Lawrence to avoid interrupting SRT service during construction. Ideally, acquire property to build a connection to Ellesmere for fast bus access. Many STC routes can be diverted there, particularly less frequent routes which should have integrated schedules.

Fantasy idea, but still maybe possible if action is taken quickly:
- Build a third GO platform at Kennedy, and a third platform at Finch, Milliken, or Unionville. Run a frequent shuttle service with relatively short trains between those to supplement Stouffville Line service (maybe DMUs if we can get them fast enough, if not then just shorter GO trains, maybe 6- or 4- car). Maybe even plop in a few extra stations for this service, a short platform might fit at Lawrence without too much SRT disruption. Many of the former STC buses can now easily feed this line. Ideally get combined Stouffville Line headways down to somewhere like 5 mins. This would negate the need for a Midland BRT.
 
sixrings said:
another Ford who managed to get himself premier on similar transit promises which they too knew were going nowhere.
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Not sure if you've been reading the news paper for the past couple months but three out of the four transit projects he proposed is close to getting shovels in the ground.
 
Rainforest said:
I think you are assuming too much. Firstly, did Mikey even show any interest in running? He seems to be very quiet and hardly noticeable outside his riding. I'd expect a few of more outspoken councillors to give it a try in 2022.

Plus, Jennifer Keesmaat might try again. Running against the incumbent was hard, running against other contenders should be a lot easier.

And secondly, Mikey showed no opposition to Finch LRT being built right through his riding. Thus, hard to predict what his priorities will be if he decides to run for the mayor in say 2030, based on what Rob Ford's priorities were in 2010.
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Mikeys priorities are to get paid the most amount of money with the most power with the least education and the least amount of work The most amount of work he ever did was changing his last name from stripe to Ford to get himself a job. What makes you think this person wouldn’t want to be mayor if the city was dumb enough to give it to him on a silver platter. You think he became a politician because he has priorities other then himself?
 
CaskoChan said:
Not sure if you've been reading the news paper for the past couple months but three out of the four transit projects he proposed is close to getting shovels in the ground.
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Scarborough subway is his brothers idea and that’s from over a decade ago. The shovels are not in the ground.

the Ontario line was just a rebranded drl which I’m thankful for but he didn’t invent it.

what are the other two projects the Ford proposed? Smart track was John Tory while go rer was the liberals baby.
 
sixrings said:
Mikeys priorities are to get paid the most amount of money with the most power with the least education and the least amount of work The most amount of work he ever did was changing his last name from stripe to Ford to get himself a job. What makes you think this person wouldn’t want to be mayor if the city was dumb enough to give it to him on a silver platter. You think he became a politician because he has priorities other then himself?
Click to expand...
Okay we get it, you really hate the Fords, but what you just described Michael Ford is every single politician, just an fyi.
 
sixrings said:
Like I said. Torys not an idiot. Once elected he supported the transit plans that made sense. To get elected he was willing to say anything.
Click to expand...

Certainly he isn't an idiot. But it should be noted that both SmartTrack and SSE were doable. Well, for the most part.

Heavy rail along Eglinton West was a no-go, and was duly discared soon after he got elected. But upgrades to the existing rail lines - why not? Many cities around the world run local-focused service on their mainlines; why couldn't we do the same. All John Tory had to do is find a good technical expert or a small team of experts, and then support them politically.

SSE: think whatever you like about its merits, but John Tory inherited that project from the previous administration, and endorsed it himself. All he had to do is quickly produce realistic cost estimates, and then finalize a route that attains the goals and fits into the funding envelope. Instead, they spent 5 years publishing ever-growing cost estimates, failed to select a good route, ended up with a one-stop plan that made noone happy, and finally got overwritten by the province.
 
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