salsa
Senior Member
And predictably, it's quickly turning into another shit show. I'm out.Cue the LRT vs Subway discussion
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Scarborough could realistically be on the bus for a decade or more. Was this all worth it? Idk
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I can't imagine they will be for that long; maybe a few years max. The annoying thing about all of it was that this "bus avoidance" argument was pushed to avoid consideration of the existing alignment.
AoD
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Notably Tory never stated when exactly the SRT would shut down. This makes me think that it’s sooner than the previously anticipated 2026 end of life. Maybe 2023 or 2024 is on the table. Pure speculation of course.
The SSE is scheduled to open 2029, but knowing how things go in this town, a delay to 2031 to 2033 would hardly be remarkable.
Basically a three year shutdown is the absolute best case scenario right now (2026 to 2029). The reasonable worst case scenario is around 10 years (if the subway is further delayed and the SSE shuts down sooner than previously expected). Obviously neither case is remotely acceptable.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I can't imagine they wouldn't do their darnest to extend SRT for as long as possible within reason.
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M II A II R II K
Senior Member
And it’ll be the first time that a rapid transit map is subtracted to as opposed to the usual incremental additions.
Deadpool X
Senior Member
North York has 20 km of subway lines while Scarborough has only 5 km of subway. Scarborough is only slightly lesser in population (630,000) compared to North York (870,000). Even with SSE, Scarborough will have less subway per capita.
Not only that, Scarborough has only 1 highway passing through it while North York has 4. Even Etobicoke with half as much population has 4 freeways.
But somehow a few people in this forum look down upon Scarborough sitting on their thrones as if Scarborough doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things.
PS - I don't live in Scarborough but I can certainly sense some people's hate for Scarborough.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Not to argue that there isn't a transit/transportation issue in Scarborough, but the whole "subway mileage per capita" argument is questionable. I don't live in the City of Toronto proper - but in Peel which had a population larger than North York. Zero subway, one BRT with a fairly pathetic daily ridership and one LRT under construction (value-engineered to fit the budget by the Ford government, certainly nothing deep bored; loop/stations were cut). Should I agitate (as some did last election - using precisely the same rationale) for a subway line with mileage similar to either - especially now that this line is paid for provincially - because subways are about "whether one matters"? You see where I am going with this? Also - if I want to play this "mileage" game, wouldn't it make sense to maximize the amount of subway with a certain amount of cash, instead of building an extension with no net gain in the number of rapid transit stations?
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afransen
Senior Member
^It's a lot of post hoc rationalization for what people want for other reasons.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Scarborough's transit ridership (>400 K PPD) is higher than all of Peel Region's (~220 K PPD) though so this is kind of a moot point.
syn
Senior Member
I think this is part of the point that was being made.
What would Peel Region ridership be like with 9 rapid transit stops and the level of transit access you find in Scarborough?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
We can both play this game of picking and choosing indicators that "matters" (if you had missed my point that transit - particularly high cost transit - shouldn't be about some weird sense of fairness on the basis of subway miles/population) - so Peel should have 1/2 of the subway mileage/rider then?
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Rainforest
Senior Member
Unfortunately, the fact that so little has been achieved on SSE since 2014 is John Tory's fault. Not the Ford nations', and not the lefty groups'.
Tory had the administrative power, the popularity, and the provincial and federal funding commitments; he certainly was in the position to combine all of that and put showels in the ground by now. But he didn't.
My view of Tory's governance is positive overall. He can handle the everyday matters with both common sense and proper decorum. He has been reasonable and helpful in the Covid response. He isn't too bad for transit; either. ECLRT and Finch West construction, although started before his term, are progressing well because he shields them from the political meddling. Add the enhanced express buses, the King corridor, the new bike lanes, and the glass is more than half full.
But wherever active leadership is required, as opposed to just overseeing the natural developments, John Tory isn't impressive at all. Smarttrack? SSE? Waterfront East LRT? Each of those projects is conceptually supported by Tory, and yet, very little progress has been made.
Tory had the administrative power, the popularity, and the provincial and federal funding commitments; he certainly was in the position to combine all of that and put showels in the ground by now. But he didn't.
My view of Tory's governance is positive overall. He can handle the everyday matters with both common sense and proper decorum. He has been reasonable and helpful in the Covid response. He isn't too bad for transit; either. ECLRT and Finch West construction, although started before his term, are progressing well because he shields them from the political meddling. Add the enhanced express buses, the King corridor, the new bike lanes, and the glass is more than half full.
But wherever active leadership is required, as opposed to just overseeing the natural developments, John Tory isn't impressive at all. Smarttrack? SSE? Waterfront East LRT? Each of those projects is conceptually supported by Tory, and yet, very little progress has been made.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
His position is basically try to keep the property taxes in line - capital heavy projects of this sort by default requires either raising funds through a levy (e.g. like the special fund for SSE, even then covering only about 1/3 of the cost) or taking on and servicing large amounts of additional debt. I doubt his council (particularly the councilors he had aligned himself, and depended support from) will go for that. Remember the good old "subways, but no new taxes" mantra of the late Rob Ford? Those same attitudes are still there in council. Also, you are assuming that the Province and the Feds don't have agenda of their own and can be pushed around - that's hard in the best of times, and he ain't Hazel.
And I think you have overstated his influence with ECLRT or Finch West - the fact that it is far along and run through some important provincial ridings for the previous and current government saved them - not because Tory is persuasive.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
At least he could have made a more vigorous effort. He had the city's special fund, and the formal funding commitments from both the Province and the Feds. He didn't have to push for a tax increase on his own; that had been taken care of by Stinz and de Baerenmaker, before Tory was elected.
IMO, Tory's team was lacking on the technical side in case of SSE. The McCowan route (underground) was selected based on the early cost estimates, which didn't show much savings for the Uxbridge Sub (at-grade / elevated) route compared to the MCowan one. But later the cost escalated, and much of the escalation was explicitly tied to the undrground construction and the deep Lawrence East station. One would think that the elevated option needs to be revisited at that point, but no such attempt was made.