News   Jul 12, 2024
 1.2K     0 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 1K     1 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 375     0 

Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Honest question.

Lets say we follow a scenario where Keesmaat is elected and she pulls City funding for SSE, stating that the province is determined to build it themselves.

Does Doug Ford move ahead with funding and building the SSE?


This scenario is possible even with the right agreement being reached even with Tory and Ford. The problem with Keesmaats approach here is it seem to be more combative toward a majority Province and that approach could easily come back to bite the City in many other areas. Ford would likely fund the subway and noose would tighten around issues that mattered most to her the most where Provincial help was required. There is really no leverage for the City to call the shots or be the aggressor in political chess match right now.

The concept itself seems to be a good middle ground and a similar agreement is best for the City in this climate. The Province can better handle subways/RER and the City can continue the remaining LRT/BRT lines on its own if it chooses. I don't see this approach being a major issue for Ford as long as he can take full control of the subway network.

More importantly JK needs a damning video of Tory to surface fairly soon for this scenario to play out. Even then....
 
Last edited:
Seconded. The 3 stop scarborough subway extension is getting built no matter what, but if the city withdraws the funding, other projects that keesmat wants to do and needs provincial funding might get scrapped as revenge.
 
Seconded. The 3 stop scarborough subway extension is getting built no matter what, but if the city withdraws the funding, other projects that keesmat wants to do and needs provincial funding might get scrapped as revenge.

The province is going to require some type of payment from the TTC for use of their infrastructure (this applies to Finch, Eglinton, Hurontario, and Hamilton too). What ratio of the capital maintenance bill the city covers will most likely be inversely proportional to cities initial construction contribution.

In short, if the Toronto withdraws funding now then Toronto will find itself making larger non-optional monthly payments for the 30 years following. Doug gets a political bonus for footing construction and Toronto will still have similar financial constraints.

Nearly every Metrolinx project to date has left capital maintenance as a something to be negotiated later; Keesmaat may even believe she's getting away with something for several years.

Ford will almost certainly be around for another term and we know he can hold a grudge for a very long time.
 
Last edited:
I watched that Dragon's Den episode that someone made reference to a few pages back, and it was hard to follow her train of thought there as well.

That subway to Pickering comment by Ford, and her terminology was kind of suspicious.

A big problem is when the transit experts refused to cooperate with the politicians, then the politicians may start lending their ear to these potentially fly-by-night "experts".
The problem, as defined by much of Scarborough and the Fords, was to connect Scarborough (STC) to the core of Toronto with a RAPID transit system. It appears that not a single expert has actually seriously tried to do this.

The gap is easy to identify. The transit riding public in Scarborough wanted to fix an irritant in their daily commute. And it's an irritant because it's an impediment to getting to the core, which is the goal of their commutes.

Miller and Giambrone saw it as an opportunity to kill suburban subway expansion for good while gentrifying Scarborough and Etobicoke. Why else would they have picked Sheppard East as the first LRT to launch at the time?

If addressing the public's demand for better commutes was a priority, the DRL and suburban rail would be higher on the list. But, since the planners and politicians flat out ignored the public's demand for downtown focused transit, the Fords and their ilk gained traction.

The subway could have been rendered impotent if serious effort had been put into a suburban rail system. Instead they chose to try ram the LRT through.

And it's pretty obvious that politicians like Keesmat still don't get it.
 
Honest question.

Lets say we follow a scenario where Keesmaat is elected and she pulls City funding for SSE, stating that the province is determined to build it themselves.

Does Doug Ford move ahead with funding and building the SSE?

If Keesmat even hints at trying something like that as mayor, that will be the end of Toronto managing its transit.

I'm not even sure Ford won't have uploaded the TTC completely by the end of his term. Stunts like what you suggest here may just hasten the ultimate end.
 
^SRT. Read all about it. And the first GO station was at Rouge Hill. Read all about it. And Keesmaat will have no bearing or say on Ford's completely autonomous move to upload the subway. It's Tory who's vocally objecting and stomping his shiny Oxfords. Keesmaat saw what was coming, and outed Ford to do it overtly, which he now has.

The only complication is the Relief Line. That is worth discussing, not trying to rearrange the events already in play. If that's going to be subway (in the sense that Toronto and Ford know) then Keesmaat might be playing another hand to feint Ford.
 
The province is going to require some type of payment from the TTC for use of their infrastructure (this applies to Finch, Eglinton, Hurontario, and Hamilton too). What ratio of the capital maintenance bill the city covers will most likely be inversely proportional to cities initial construction contribution.
I don't know if that's been clarified yet, it may still be in flux, any references you can provide most welcome, but here's what a quick Google shows: (Tried to edit this down, but it has too much crucial info to do it.) Full credits to Toronto Star:

By JENNIFER PAGLIAROCity Hall reporter
ROBERT BENZIEQueen's Park Bureau Chief
Tues., Nov. 8, 2016
The provincial government was not only willing but assumed it would have to pay operating costs for the now-cancelled Scarborough LRT under a deal to fund a series of light-rail projects.

A 2013 internal document obtained by the Star calls into question a newly-proposed deal to be debated Tuesday that would see the city shouldering operating costs for all remaining LRTs — which will likely cost the city almost $100 million annually.

Critics on council have questioned those terms, after they were made public last week, saying the city is being made to pay what was meant to be provincial costs in order to move ahead with Mayor John Tory’s plans for SmartTrack.

“I am appalled that Mayor Tory would sell out the future of transit in Toronto just to keep SmartTrack attached to something, anything at all,” said Councillor Gord Perks. “Losing provincial funding for light rail operations sets the city’s transit future back decades and we get almost nothing in return.”

At Queen’s Park, an aide to Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca emphasized how much the province is doing for Toronto transit.

“The agreement in principle included in the city of Toronto’s report is the result of a strong working relationship between two levels of government focused on delivering much-needed transit investments in Toronto,” said Andrea ‎Ernesaks late Monday, noting the city paying operating and maintenance for the LRT projects is “reflective of a partnership” where the province is funding all capital construction costs and other transit projects.

“A three year old document would have zero bearings on these negotiations,” the mayor’s spokesperson Amanda Galbraith said in an email. “We are confident the agreement negotiated is the right deal for the city.”

“The LRT operating and maintenance costs were a central issue in the negotiations, and the proposed terms represent those required for Provincial agreement,” city spokesperson Wynna Brown said in an email, noting the 2013 document does not speak to the other LRTs.

“The City is not privy nor has any insight to provincial cabinet documents.”

In an August 2013 submission to the Treasury Board/Management Board of Cabinet, the Ministry of Transportation wrote that under a 2012 master agreement between the city and the province, an operating deal was to be negotiated that would “address the issues of the sharing of the operating subsidy (net costs).”

“However,” the report reads, “It is unrealistic to assume that Metrolinx would have been successful in negotiating contributions by the City/TTC for net operating and maintenance related to the Scarborough LRT.”

The master agreement also outlined how three other LRT lines would get built and paid for: The now under-construction Eglinton Crosstown LRT and the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs, which have yet to be built.

But under a new deal council is being asked to approve, the city would be responsible for all operating costs.

The total operating costs for those remaining lines are estimated at $182.4 million annually (in inflation-adjusted dollars). When fare revenues are applied and operating costs for existing bus routes removed, the net cost is expected to be about half.

At City Hall, staff have acknowledged there was an assumption the province would pay for operating costs, but said the province never accounted financially for being responsible.

The internal document does outline that the province’s “net operating and lifecycle cost obligations related (to) the Scarborough LRT project,” would have been $1.2 billion over 30 years — $750 million alone for operating — starting from when the line was meant to be in operation, in 2020.

At the centre of the new proposal is the province’s agreement to build a heavily-revised version of Tory’s campaign promise — now just six new stations on the Stouffville and Kitchener GO lines and an LRT instead of new heavy rail along Eglinton Ave. West. The estimated costs for construction alone are $3.7 billion. The city is responsible for total unknown operating costs.

City staff said the legal interpretation of the earlier agreement is that they cannot compel the province to pay for operating costs and that this is the best deal the city is going to get.

“As a matter of fact and as matter of law, the interpretation of the agreement is very, very clear,” city manager Peter Wallace told the mayor’s executive committee last week. Wallace only came to the city in 2015. He was the most senior bureaucrat with the province from 2011 to 2014.

Wallace told executive that “obviously it would have been my preference to have the province absorb operating and maintenance costs,” as part of the new agreement, noting a pattern of the province downloading costs onto the city.

The master agreement was reopened in order to remove the Scarborough LRT from the list of projects after council controversially voted in 2013 to flip-flop on the fully-funded Scarborough LRT and build a three-stop $3.56 billion subway instead, under pressure from mayor Rob Ford and Scarborough councillors.

While the province publicly agreed to fund only $1.48 billion (in 2010 dollars) toward the subway and refused to pay any operating or maintenance costs, it appears there was room for negotiation there as well.

“If net operating and maintenance costs become critical issues in coming to an agreement, some flexibility will be considered to fund additional related capital costs,” the document notes, including specifically mentioning needed upgrades for automatic train control and improvements at Bloor-Yonge station.

The city is now moving ahead with a $3.2 billion, one-stop subway plan backed by Tory for which the city will pay all operating and maintenance costs.

“Why is the city of Toronto seemingly working against its own interests?” asked Councillor Josh Matlow, who has repeatedly questioned the city’s position on who is responsible for paying operating costs.

“This revelation should raise concerns for every Toronto resident. It’s time for Torontonians and city councillors alike to finally get some real answers. What happened here?”
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...or-lrt-operating-costs-internal-document.html

@rbt : If this hasn't been further defined/refined over the last two years, no matter what Ford does, it could be far messier than just the subway itself. Any further points and reference others could add most welcome.

Ford will almost certainly be around for another term
On this point we're going to have to agree to disagree.
 
Last edited:
I don't know if that's been clarified yet, it may still be in flux, any references you can provide most welcome, but here's what a quick Google shows: (Tried to edit this down, but it has too much crucial info to do it.) Full credits to Toronto Star:

The contracts between Metrolinx and the various cities left payments for using the provinces capital to future negotiations. I don't have links; Metrolinx "loses" things from their website.

If there is a signed agreement or amendment to what Miller/McGuinty agreed to (via TTC/Metrolinx of course) I've not seen it so presume those are still subject to negotiation. Whatever McGunity/Wynne may have wanted or believed fair no long matters; it's what the future mayors can negotiate with Ford. There are limited dollars with the tightening of revenues and big spending promises (SSE/Sheppard); I don't expect Ford to demand a split or share of revenue in some way. Consideration for the reaction of seats outside Toronto will be determining what deal TTC gets.

On this point we're going to have to agree to disagree.

I would really like it to not happen that way; of course what I want often isn't what happens. That circus at City Council probably isn't going to happen at Queen's Park; his handlers have done an amazing job keeping his anger issues out of public view thus far.
 
Last edited:
The gap is easy to identify. The transit riding public in Scarborough wanted to fix an irritant in their daily commute. And it's an irritant because it's an impediment to getting to the core, which is the goal of their commutes.

Miller and Giambrone saw it as an opportunity to kill suburban subway expansion for good while gentrifying Scarborough and Etobicoke. Why else would they have picked Sheppard East as the first LRT to launch at the time?

If addressing the public's demand for better commutes was a priority, the DRL and suburban rail would be higher on the list. But, since the planners and politicians flat out ignored the public's demand for downtown focused transit, the Fords and their ilk gained traction.

The subway could have been rendered impotent if serious effort had been put into a suburban rail system. Instead they chose to try ram the LRT through.

And it's pretty obvious that politicians like Keesmat still don't get it.

Absolutely. Smelled alot like Bombardier/labour unions and the NDP. All about the car orders, screw the residents or impacts to other commuters. They were determined to lay as much track as possible and some fought till the bitter end against the people and overwhelming political support when exposed. All leaders from all levels, 99% of local politicians understood the problems immediately and agreed we had to do better after it was called out directly for what it was.

Keesmaats maneuvers, media ties and motives have also seemed quite questionable and political even as a planner. Thankfully its a non factor now and the City can atleast continue towards a better overall plan, even if it costs more. As lets be honest the LRT was never about cost savings or need. There was cheaper options for some lines and local transit was never a priority, our bus network is damn good in most of Scarborough

Don't get me wrong there is a place for surface transit, and LRT can be implemented in an intelligent manner. This plan wasn't designed well and the City paid for it big time.
 
Last edited:
As crazy as subway safety's plan(s) seem to be, it does provide some perspective. Her rationale seems almost as sensible as what you'll hear from Tory regarding the SSE.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rbt
Site Plan Approval application for the Scarborough Centre Station Terminal was submitted today:

http://app.toronto.ca/DevelopmentAp...icationsList.do?action=init&folderRsn=4440296
From the Dev App site:
upload_2018-9-4_21-58-25.png


upload_2018-9-4_21-58-58.png


upload_2018-9-4_21-59-20.png


upload_2018-9-4_21-59-38.png


upload_2018-9-4_22-0-10.png


upload_2018-9-4_22-0-46.png
 

Attachments

  • upload_2018-9-4_21-58-25.png
    upload_2018-9-4_21-58-25.png
    428.6 KB · Views: 406
  • upload_2018-9-4_21-58-58.png
    upload_2018-9-4_21-58-58.png
    262.8 KB · Views: 385
  • upload_2018-9-4_21-59-20.png
    upload_2018-9-4_21-59-20.png
    313.7 KB · Views: 386
  • upload_2018-9-4_21-59-38.png
    upload_2018-9-4_21-59-38.png
    1.1 MB · Views: 476
  • upload_2018-9-4_22-0-10.png
    upload_2018-9-4_22-0-10.png
    859.3 KB · Views: 454
  • upload_2018-9-4_22-0-46.png
    upload_2018-9-4_22-0-46.png
    1.5 MB · Views: 431
Can't we just keep stations simple and functional, and use the money saved for two extra stops? Am I off topic?

We wont be building any stops with the money saved. But atleast could build an access to the subway on the east side of McCowan. Heck maybe some horizantal airport style conveyors to shuttle people accross from the City centre to the subway.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top