Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

Lol @ complaining about subway stops being 2km apart in a thread about an extension with 6km stop spacing.

Btw, Yonge between Lawrence and 401 probably has more walkable retail than the same distance away from Wilson Station.

It's incredible how urban and walkable Yonge is, from especially from Eglinton all the way up to Steeles (save for the ravines north of York Mills). Especially since the transit coverage along Yonge north of Eglinton is fairly terrible, with stops only every 2 km. Goes to show that rapid transit coverage isn't the only factor at play with regards to walkability.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Where are the urban, walkable areas in Scarborough?

Eglinton Avenue East east of Kennedy Road. I wouldn't call it urban, but it is relatively walkable. It's full of strip malls, but they're occupied by small retail units, so it's easy to hit several stores a short walking distance from one another. The area also has a ton of high rise apartment buildings, and I believe it's one of the densest residential corridors in the city. I used to be in the area quite frequently by TTC.

I believe the Eglinton East LRT will quickly catalyst to transforming this area into a truly urban corridor. Frankly, a much better candidate for urbanization than Scarborough Centre.

 

[salsa]

In the RT's case, a lot of that ridership is very synthetic. And everybody who lives in Scarborough knows it. Go stand outside McCowan. Tell me how much walk-in traffic there is. It's all riders getting off the buses one stop early so they can get a seat. Then the bus turns right into SC after McCowan. Midland repeats this on the other side of SC. I see zero reason for these stops to exist.

In fact, even if it were LRT, it's patently ridiculous to have grade separation east of McCowan when the route parallels the 134 Progress. It's actually even worse for some riders, because there was no stop proposed at Markham ever. Instead, everyone will be expected to walk up that hill in winter to catch the LRT at Centennial.

As bad as the one stop is, the LRT plan seems to be driven by, "Let's just build a bunch of stops to justify LRT." No thought as to how riders actually using the existing system.

Ellesmere has a pathetic 1140 average daily ridership. This is half of Bessarion for crying out loud. Midland is 3020. Only beats Bessarion on the entire system. And that's with bus routes that feed them!

How the heck is it justifiable to keep these stations open and slow down tens of thousands of other riders a day, when their bus routes can continue to Lawrence or SC and reach in literally 2-4 more minutes? These stations don't even have enough ridership to justify their operating expenses.

So on one hand you decry all the poorly used stops on the RT, but call for a Markham stop that would probably be about as useful as Midland. You fret about how those stops are slowing down everybody else, but want the RT to have no grade separation past McCowan. You've complained many times about how the transit city lines have too many stops that are too close together, while your Markham station would be less than 400 metres from Centennial. You think it's ridiculous that the RT extension parallels an existing bus route, as if that's unusual for a new transit line.

I think it's safe to say that there will never be a consensus on whats the best way to fix Scarborough transit. Even after more than 800 pages and 12 (!) years of debate, everyone here still has wildly differing opinions.

 

[Rainforest]

Lol @ complaining about subway stops being 2km apart in a thread about an extension with 6km stop spacing.

That 6-km extension wasn't even mentioned in my post. You said that Yonge is good and Wilson stn is bad, I responded that it is not always the case.

Btw, Yonge between Lawrence and 401 probably has more walkable retail than the same distance away from Wilson Station.

I am pretty sure that Wilson ave (east of the Wilson Hts intersection) has more retail than the said section of Yonge.

 

[syn]

In the RT's case, a lot of that ridership is very synthetic. And everybody who lives in Scarborough knows it. Go stand outside McCowan. Tell me how much walk-in traffic there is. It's all riders getting off the buses one stop early so they can get a seat. Then the bus turns right into SC after McCowan. Midland repeats this on the other side of SC. I see zero reason for these stops to exist.

In fact, even if it were LRT, it's patently ridiculous to have grade separation east of McCowan when the route parallels the 134 Progress. It's actually even worse for some riders, because there was no stop proposed at Markham ever. Instead, everyone will be expected to walk up that hill in winter to catch the LRT at Centennial.

As bad as the one stop is, the LRT plan seems to be driven by, "Let's just build a bunch of stops to justify LRT." No thought as to how riders actually using the existing system.

Ellesmere has a pathetic 1140 average daily ridership. This is half of Bessarion for crying out loud. Midland is 3020. Only beats Bessarion on the entire system. And that's with bus routes that feed them!

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway_ridership_2012-2013.pdf

How the heck is it justifiable to keep these stations open and slow down tens of thousands of other riders a day, when their bus routes can continue to Lawrence or SC and reach in literally 2-4 more minutes? These stations don't even have enough ridership to justify their operating expenses.

That's exactly the reasoning behind this 6KM extension.

It makes no sense on any level.

Lawrence East has over 8,000 riders a day (https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway ridership 2015.pdf).

McCowan is surprisingly not that far off some of the lesser used stations on the Yonge-University Line.

Even if you think the current LRT alignment doesn't make sense, how about coming up with something new, and putting all this money into an LRT plan that makes sense for all of Scarborough?

Or even better - how about just upgrading the current RT with newer technology and maintaining the flexibility it currently provides??

 

[syn]

To me this is a ridiculous assertion. Scarboorugh may not be as walkable as downtown but it's a hell of a lot more transit friendly than say Mississauga or Brampton or Markham. And the constant insinuation that Scarborough is basically a 905 tumor inserted into the 416 is annoying as f---.

Really?

There are quite a few areas of Mississauga that are transit friendly - or at least as transit friendly as anything you'd find in Scarborough, if not more so.

Scarborough, for better or worse is a suburb. It lacks the density to accommodate a subway as a sensible form of transit. They've had subway stations for decades now, and it's not like those areas have really evolved into higher density, transit friendly neighbourhoods. In fact, for stations at the end of the line ridership isn't really that impressive.

 

[Rainforest]

Even if you think the current LRT alignment doesn't make sense, how about coming up with something new, and putting all this money into an LRT plan that makes sense for all of Scarborough?

1. BD Subway to Scarborough Centre.
2. Lawrence East station added back.
3. Light rail on Eglinton East and Kingston Rd, to UTSC.
4. Light rail in the nothern section of SRT corridor, starting at Brimley and Progress, to Scarborough Centre, Centennial, Sheppard, Malvern Centre.

 

[LNahid2000]

That 6-km extension wasn't even mentioned in my post. You said that Yonge is good and Wilson stn is bad, I responded that it is not always the case..

No, I said most of Yonge is walkable and pedestrian friendly, specifically because I was thinking of the section between Yonge Blvd and 401. Also, I never said you mentioned the 6km extension. Learn to read.

 

[syn]

1. BD Subway to Scarborough Centre.
2. Lawrence East station added back.
3. Light rail on Eglinton East and Kingston Rd, to UTSC.
4. Light rail in the nothern section of SRT corridor, starting at Brimley and Progress, to Scarborough Centre, Centennial, Sheppard, Malvern Centre.

I should've written 'makes sense for Scarborough and the rest of Toronto based on the transit funding available'.

#1 Makes no sense on any level.
#2 Would add significant cost to an already absurd plan.

How about a network of LRTs from Kennedy station offering wide coverage throughout Scarborough??

 

[CodeMonkey]

How about a network of LRTs from Kennedy station offering wide coverage throughout Scarborough??

You mean making Kennedy a hub of more than the two LRT lines?

 

[Leo_Chan]

You mean making Kennedy a hub of more than the two LRT lines?

And a subway line and a commuter train line.

 

[Rainforest]

No, I said most of Yonge is walkable and pedestrian friendly, specifically because I was thinking of the section between Yonge Blvd and 401. Also, I never said you mentioned the 6km extension. Learn to read.

Learn to think. You brought that extension into a reply to my post that did not mention it. I simply pointed that out.

 

[LNahid2000]

Learn to think. You brought that extension into a reply to my post that did not mention it. I simply pointed that out.

Yes, I brought the extension into my reply because I found it funny that the topic of this thread is about a subway with 6km stop spacing. I'm still posting in the thread about the Scarborough Subway extension right?

 

[Rainforest]

How about a network of LRTs from Kennedy station offering wide coverage throughout Scarborough??

A network with a mandatory transfer at Kennedy was too unpopular to be accepted. However, there have been some proposals that could result in a satisfactory network without the subway extension.

One such proposal is so-called SmartSpur; a branch of RER/SmartTrack taking over the elevated section of SRT and reaching Scarborough Centre. I don't know if the width of the corridor or the noise those large trains produce would block the idea. In any case, much more investment would have to be made in the rail corridor leading to Union (Uxbridge sub plus Scarborough Junction plus Lakeshore East) than Metrolinx and the City are currently willing to make. The whole proposal was never officially studied.

Another possibility is a continuous SRT-Eglinton light rail line. IMO, it would be viable only in combination with the Relief Line. The Relief line would have to be quickly built from downtown all the way to Eglinton East. Without that, Eglinton LRT would receive too many riders from Scarborough and get close to being overwhelmed right after opening.

I don't expect either of the above two proposals to be adopted. The ship has sailed.

 

[Rainforest]

Yes, I brought the extension into my reply because I found it funny that the topic of this thread is about a subway with 6km stop spacing. I'm still posting in the thread about the Scarborough Subway extension right?

But you mentioned other locations: Wilson and Kipling, that are totally unrelated to the said topic. So, it was reasonable for me to make a minor remark regarding Wilson.