Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

It has everything to do with it. The only reason the RT is now a subway is because the idiotic Sheppard LRT was cancelled by Ford who wanted to build a subway on Sheppard. There was minimal support to save the second rate LRT line within Scarborough. The subway didn't pan out as Ford wanted but to save his "subway, subway, subway" slogan the opportunistic Stintz, Glenn DB & others drew up the RT replacement.

The other main reason we have the "Scarborough Subway" is because the continuous Eglinton-Scarborough subway was scrapped. A continuous LRT could have cost as low as a few hundred million extra over the on street LRT plan. But when politicians realized that Scarborough was left wanting, it spawned the spending of an extra $2B on the B-D subway extension and also the SmartTrack plan - which will add several Billions in costs near Mount Dennis. Collectively, we decided it is better to save a few hundred million in 2014 and spend an extra $5B later this decade.

 

[crs1026]

I kind of wish them luck, in that one would like to think the city takes a hard look and realizes it's not worth it. Practically speaking, that seems unlikely. And anyway, if they get reduced DCs and the extra cost gets passed on taxpayers, well, that hasn't really helped any of us, has it?

Keep in mind that developers do not actually pay DC's out of their own pocket. DC's are added to the purchase price of what is constructed. Someone buying a new condo unit is paying the DC, and it can be $60,000 or more per unit. BILD is worried about not having anything to build, if prices get too high.

There is a valid concern that no affordable housing will ensue from the subway. I haven't heard the planners' view on this - another thing that subway proponents need to speak to.

BILD is also noting that the subway routing does not pass through much developable/zonable land.

All of this originates in developers' self interest, but nobody says their interests are opposed to ours. If we were to build a Scarboro subway, and little or no development ensued, we'd all be in a jam. Scarberians need to think about what kind of city gets built, and not just how their personal commute changes.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

Spadina will vastly increase transit access in northern Etobicoke. Sure, it doesn't technically cross into Etobicoke, but it saves a significant amount of time spent stuck on a bus. Travel times will be further reduced with the Finch LRT.

So...Etobicoke has been given a better deal because they accepted the idea that pushing LRT into the far reaches is better than building a lesser amount of subway in the center?

And....Scarboro has been offered the same idea, but this is somehow an insult?

- Paul

 

[coffey1]

So...Etobicoke has been given a better deal because they accepted the idea that pushing LRT into the far reaches is better than building a lesser amount of subway in the center?

And....Scarboro has been offered the same idea, but this is somehow an insult?

- Paul

Scarborough has been offered a mess of an LRT plan & a mess of a subway plan. Period.

End of the day Metroland (Torstar) media wont allow any suburban Subway without a major assault unless it heading to the open lands of York region. Somewhat odd that there press Center is in Vaughan? Not sure if that is a coincidence or there are other motives. I believe there is also the want to hord the available capital for the DRL & central interests. But who knows why they continue to bash suburban area & send a bi-weekly assualt with misleading headlines, pictures, stories trying to stop the SSE. I fully support the DRL but in conjunction with building a useful network in Toronto's crammed suburbs. The Star does nothing to help these neglected areas or help to pressure government to address the needs.

As much as I think there are other options for suburban Toronto aside from the subway, the self serving media seems hell bent on pushing this flawed, hacked & poorly funded LRT plan on Scarborough with the narrative of how great it is. The options they throw out there are pitiful are basically lead people to believe the current LRT design is the best or only option. All the while they go eerily silent on the Vaughan & Richmond Hill extensions.

Scarborough & Etobicoke deserve fairness. Convert the Sheppard subway to LRT , FUND & build full local LRT routes in Etobicoke & Scarborough, and stop giving away subways to other regions who have way less then half of the population of these Suburban areas.

Wake up Toronto & lets work together.

 

[Adjei]

Scarborough has been offered a mess of an LRT plan & a mess of a subway plan. Period.

End of the day Metroland (Torstar) media wont allow any suburban Subway without a major assault unless it heading to the open lands of York region. Somewhat odd that there press Center is in Vaughan? Not sure if that is a coincidence or there are other motives. I believe there is also the want to hord the available capital for the DRL & central interests. But who knows why they continue to bash suburban area & send a bi-weekly assualt with misleading headlines, pictures, stories trying to stop the SSE. I fully support the DRL but in conjunction with building a useful network in Toronto's crammed suburbs. The Star does nothing to help these neglected areas or help to pressure government to address the needs.

As much as I think there are other options for suburban Toronto aside from the subway, the self serving media seems hell bent on pushing this flawed, hacked & poorly funded LRT plan on Scarborough with the narrative of how great it is. The options they throw out there are pitiful are basically lead people to believe the current LRT design is the best or only option. All the while they go eerily silent on the Vaughan & Richmond Hill extensions.

Scarborough & Etobicoke deserve fairness. Convert the Sheppard subway to LRT , FUND & build full local LRT routes in Etobicoke & Scarborough, and stop giving away subways to other regions who have way less then half of the population of these Suburban areas.

Wake up Toronto & lets work together.

I think you are seeing whatever you want to see. You think everybody is out to get Scarborough.

I guess you must have missed all the controversy this subway to Vauaghan created or is it because it wasn't against Scarborough that you didn't notice?

Why would the Star be criticizing the subway to Richmond Hill, it has no funding. This subway actually does have funding and people have the right to criticize it without the likes of you coming and screaming about the so called neglect of Scarborough. You don't hear this kind of crap from even transit starved areas like Etobicoke.

 

[jaybe]

Scarborough & Etobicoke deserve fairness. Convert the Sheppard subway to LRT , FUND & build full local LRT routes in Etobicoke & Scarborough, and stop giving away subways to other regions who have way less then half of the population of these Suburban areas.

I agree that Scarborough has not received it's fair share of mass transit. That said, building a subway to Vaughan was a bad idea as was the incomplete Sheppard stubway. We need to stop compounding bad ideas by using them as a justification for further subway investment. We need to build an integrated system in Scarborough with the right transit options. Consider:

There is not enough density along the proposed subway route to justify the extension.
There is limited opportunity for additional density along the proposed route (there are mostly single family detached homes backing onto the street).
Most transit trips in Scarborough are local, rather than to the core or elsewhere.
The GO RER proposal will be the most efficient at moving many of the downtown-bound commuters to their destination.

Isn't an LRT Network the better option for Scarborough residents?

 

[coffey1]

I think you are seeing whatever you want to see. You think everybody is out to get Scarborough.

I guess you must have missed all the controversy this subway to Vauaghan created or is it because it wasn't against Scarborough that you didn't notice?

Why would the Star be criticizing the subway to Richmond Hill, it has no funding. This subway actually does have funding and people have the right to criticize it without the likes of you coming and screaming about the so called neglect of Scarborough. You don't hear this kind of crap from even transit starved areas like Etobicoke.

Seriously? I clearly read a bi-weekly (if not more) article against the SSE amongst other awkward articles Metroland throws out about Toronto's suburban areas. They clearly have no understanding or good intentions for Toronto's Suburbs themselves. Minimal & I mean minimal negative articles towards Richmond Hill or Vaughan subway. Many of the SSE articles are absurd and misleading, sometime they have good points. But they offer nothing to solve the other issues that got us here. They just throw things out until something sticks

I am fairly level minded, have no Political ties to any one party, I read all papers.... The Sun (Cons) is guilty of doing nothing for transit where the Star (Libs) is guilty of trying to hord whatever funds are available without helping to create an effectively integrated & funded plan for the outskirts

You cant compare Scarborough to Etobiocke other than what you said both are Transit starved and congested.

1. Etobicoke doesnt have a ridiculous hybrid subway stub to LRT line proposed or you would hear the push back
2. Etobicoke has less land mass without transit than Scarborough
3. Etobicoke has a streetcar (soon LRT hopefully) along there Lakeshore. Scarborough has nothing along Kingston Rd

Both have major needs not being addressed in this high politicized transit building climate.

I personally only support the SSE because I can only compare it to the current LRT plan & not the dream plans many post here. I would prefer if the Elite media offered solutions for funding an entire network instead of forcing patch LRT lines which have minimal support.

 

[coffey1]

Please all Google Scarborough Subway:

Go to the NEWS tab & you'll see the assault bet the left media. Scroll all 20 pages. Keep scrolling its endless & for those that live in Scarborough there slant, false headlines, false stories, is disturbing

If only Suburban Toronto had this kind of propaganda machine to spew slanted views. I don't see any articles trying to help except for a couple requesting to refurb the current RT (as if we like it).

Im asking for middle ground. Integrate & fund LRT properly and stop the extreme Political BS on both sides

My favorite is the trees on Bellamy. Why not show a picture of Eglinton or Lawrence and Bellamy which are ripe for development or the GO station on Eglinton which could be a hub. I could take a picture of trees of low rise house on 70% of the current subway stops side streets. And imagine how much less development many had where they were built.
Absurdity

 

[coffey1]

I agree that Scarborough has not received it's fair share of mass transit. That said, building a subway to Vaughan was a bad idea as was the incomplete Sheppard stubway. We need to stop compounding bad ideas by using them as a justification for further subway investment. We need to build an integrated system in Scarborough with the right transit options. Consider:

There is not enough density along the proposed subway route to justify the extension.
There is limited opportunity for additional density along the proposed route (there are mostly single family detached homes backing onto the street).
Most transit trips in Scarborough are local, rather than to the core or elsewhere.
The GO RER proposal will be the most efficient at moving many of the downtown-bound commuters to their destination.

Isn't an LRT Network the better option for Scarborough residents?

Where is this LRT network you speak of?

The Sheppard LRT hack?, The unfunded SMLRT? Scarborough is not getting a network, they're getting hacked in patch lines which wount help enough commuters to drum up the support.

Im asking both sides to stop the Political LRT vs Subway nonsense and build a properly integrated & FUNDED LRT network which is actually useful.

Stop trying to cheap out on making Sheppard a ridiculous hybrid line , fund the SMLRT, and build a new rapid (LRT or GO RER) spur option to access STC. Otherwise people out here are going to support the Subways because we shouldnt settle for the 2nd class design, & pooly funded LRT "network"

 

[Voltz]

Please all Google Scarborough Subway:

Go to the NEWS tab & you'll see the assault bet the left media. Keep scrolling its endless & for those that live in Scarborough there slant, false headlines, false stories, is disturbing

If only Suburban Toronto had this kind of propaganda machine to spew slanted views. I don't see any articles trying to help except for a couple requesting to refurb the current RT (as if we like it).

Im asking for middle ground. Integrate & fund LRT properly and stop the extreme Political BS on both sides

No, you're not asking for the middle ground, you're asking for the extreme of the Scarborough Subway, we can't build a LRT network in Scarborough because of subways, if it were not for subways there would be a LRT on Sheppard right now, and more lines on the way.

Instead we are screwed for another generation.

Your claims of a media propaganda machine against Scarborough are just ridiculous, the subway is a bad idea, it is bad for transit, it is bad for Scarborough and it needs to be stopped, there is plenty of factual information to support that.

 

[coffey1]

No, you're not asking for the middle ground, you're asking for the extreme of the Scarborough Subway, we can't build a LRT network in Scarborough because of subways, if it were not for subways there would be a LRT on Sheppard right now, and more lines on the way.

Instead we are screwed for another generation.

Your claims of a media propaganda machine against Scarborough are just ridiculous, the subway is a bad idea, it is bad for transit, it is bad for Scarborough and it needs to be stopped, there is plenty of factual information to support that.

Do you even read. I wouldn't support the subway if there was a better plan for Scarborough .

But if im forced to choose between a Sheppard LRT connection to a subway stubline & a SLRT which takes a less respectful route than the proposed Subway & adds a transfer. Without the SMLRT we have not local network so there is no comparison. Subways until Scarborough gets some respect. These line miss large chunks of important areas so most of us would rather just take a shorter bus to the subway.

The funded LRT proposal is not good.

PLEASE quit the small minded Political subway vs. LRT nonsense. It's not the technology its the implementation.

I get we don't need a subway. But to get Scarborough to support an LRT network you need to give them a network. Not only will it help support LRT not leaving hundreds of thousands at 3rd rate citizens. It is also necessary to integrate the mistake of the past.

Scarborough will support a subway until a sensible plan is funded that truly helps the majority. Until then its subway insanity

 

[Voltz]

Do you even read. I wouldn't support the subway if there was a better plan for Scarborough .

But if im forced to choose between a Sheppard LRT connection to a subway stubline & a SLRT which takes a less respectful route than the proposed Subway & adds a transfer. Without the SMLRT we have not local network so there is no comparison. Subways until Scarborough gets some respect. These line miss large chunks of important areas so most of us would rather just take a shorter bus to the subway.

The funded LRT proposal is not good.

PLEASE quit the small minded Political subway vs. LRT nonsense. It's not the technology its the implementation

Then what it with the "subways until Scarborough gets some respect" ? That is the same sloganering rhetoric that lead to the subway in the first place.

 

[coffey1]

Then what it with the "subways until Scarborough gets some respect" ? That is the same sloganering rhetoric that lead to the subway in the first place.

No that's just how many of us feel. The subway is the best plan on the table for the majority in Scarborough at the moment. Hopefully you'll help fight for a properly integrated & funded LRT network instead of patchy lines otherwise the likely reality is Scarborough will support the best plan on the table for the majority of us.

Unfortunate we dont have a media giant to inform the flaws in the LRT "network". We can only discuss subway vs LRT technology it seems

 

[rbt]

Then what it with the "subways until Scarborough gets some respect" ? That is the same sloganering rhetoric that lead to the subway in the first place.

coffey1 is satisfied with bus service for another 10 years, just as he is thrilled there are not 2 finished LRT projects in Scarborough today.

The bus service they have today and for the foreseeable future is a direct result of Scarborough's voting efforts, even killing Sheppard LRT after construction started.

 

[coffey1]

coffey1 is satisfied with bus service for another 10 years, just as he is thrilled there are not 2 finished LRT projects in Scarborough today (Sheppard LRT completion 2014, construction actually started 2009; and Scarborough LRT to Malvern by June 2015).

What good does the Sheppard LRT do? It forces commuters off who likely have already taken a bus to transfer technologies in the same direction. You really dont get it. And have no clue what is good for Scarborough.

Scarborough Village, Kingston Galloway, UTSC, the bluffs, guild, zoo, rouge ALL WOULD HAVE NO ACCESS TO THESE LRT lines. The benefit is minimal even for those along the route & actually inconveniences people from McCowan to Vic park area going east to west. The SLRT take a strange route & outside commuters just by-bass to Kennedy. Only extra benefit is Centennial- Progress & Markham Sheppard

Until we can build something useful and non-discriminatory. Dont build it.

The Sheppard plan sucks, & the SLRT is only slightly better than the crap we have now.

But you're right. Scarborough is crazy for not accepting that & supporting a subway that provides a seamless connection & shorter bus commutes.

Heck they can even build the Sheppard LRT hack job as that money was not affected by the subway "ahem" yet.


You dont just build something because it cheap & will be completed fast. Design, fund & build it properly from the start.