Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

If you reduce RER frequencies at Lawrence East, you reduce the attractiveness and ridership of the station, which can cause a further net ridership loss on the RER system overall.

I would think that a station with reduced frequencies would have higher ridership counts than a station not built at all.

If I'm going to have to wait 15 to 20 mins for a train, most of the time it'll be faster to take the bus to Kennedy.

That depends on the destination though. If the destination is close to Union then a RER trip would still be faster. With the train frequency = 20 min, the average wait will be 10 min.

Even if you just missed a train, it would be 20 min wait + 25 min ride. Alternatively, about 12 min to get to Kennedy (wait for the bus + ride + walk to the platform), 25 min to Y&B, 3 min to transfer, 10 min to Union. The second option is a few minutes longer.

 

[OneCity]

I would think that a station with reduced frequencies would have higher ridership counts than a station not built at all.



That depends on the destination though. If the destination is close to Union then a RER trip would still be faster. With the train frequency = 20 min, the average wait will be 10 min.

Even if you just missed a train, it would be 20 min wait + 25 min ride. Alternatively, about 12 min to get to Kennedy (wait for the bus + ride + walk to the platform), 25 min to Y&B, 3 min to transfer, 10 min to Union. The second option is a few minutes longer.

Smarttrack serves a slightly different purpose than the subway and if they do it right it will can be a huge success. Transit reliability will be vastly improved as it adds a layer of redundancy that currently doesn't exist when subway shutdowns or delays occur and vice versa. Surely it will be packed and a bit chaotic but compared to what happens now with buses its very useful in a reliability sense.

The commute to and from downtown will be very quick and convenient compared to the subway, certainly if timed right. If fare integration occurs it would likely even impact ridership on some GO Lakeshore East stops and quickly force a different fare approach as well. Even more important if they build a parking garage and cater to the reality most people can drive fairly easily to this point before traffic kicks in, it will be a massive success in comparison to the RT. It would be a no brainer for residents heading to the core who will continue to get choked off on Kingston Road, or Lawrence ave. to the DVP into work into the core. Also provides an attractive commuter option that doesn't currently exist.

Saying that I'm not sure they will build a parking garage and fare integration will need to happen for this stop to a complete success. But if they do the benefits would be far greater for far more residents in Scarborough than the current RT stop in this location ever could provide

 

[WislaHD]

Finally something new to report.

Scarborough strip mall slated for expropriation to power subway
https://www.insidetoronto.com/news-...all-slated-for-expropriation-to-power-subway/

 

[steveintoronto]

Finally something new to report.

Scarborough strip mall slated for expropriation to power subway
https://www.insidetoronto.com/news-...all-slated-for-expropriation-to-power-subway/

I see you, and raise you one:
Internal Metrolinx report found Scarborough subway ‘not a worthwhile use of money’

Edit to Add: I do have some questions though, as does the author of the above although she holds her punches on it, as to how that report was released by FOI in 2015, and yet languished unreported by the press.

If nothing else, it leads one to wonder how many more unreleased reports are sitting in filing cabinets on a number of transit issues...

 

[W. K. Lis]

Internal Metrolinx report found Scarborough subway ‘not a worthwhile use of money’

Council to consider push for auditor general to conduct value-for-money comparison of the costs and benefits of transit options in Scarborough.

See The Star, at this link.

Is the Scarborough subway a waste of money?

That essential question will again be raised at council this week after audit committee denied a motion from Councillor Josh Matlow last month to have a city watchdog provide the answer.

In 2013, council scrapped a fully-funded, seven-stop light rail transit (LRT) line to replace the aging Scarborough RT and voted instead to build a three-stop subway that at the time would cost at least $2 billion more, there has never been a comprehensive comparison of the costs and benefits between the two options.

But a secret report obtained by the Star through a freedom of information request provides a glimpse of what that kind of analysis might find: That a subway is “not a worthwhile use of money.”

Ahead of this week’s council meeting, Mayor John Tory remains firm that the subway project should move forward without a cost-comparison study — something that has never been requested or provided by staff.

“This is the most voted upon project, I think, that’s probably ever gone through the city council,” Tory told the Star on Friday. He said if councillors believed requesting that kind of analysis was in the public interest they’d vote for it.

“In the meantime my objective has been what it’s always been: Get on with this project.”

After the plan for a subway was revised last year to just a single-stop extension at $3.35 billion, Matlow continued to challenge his colleagues to request such a study...

 

[OneCity]

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ugh-subway-not-a-worthwhile-use-of-money.html



...."While removing a transfer at Kennedy does provide a "significant benefit""....

This report highlights the major problem here. Since its clearly significant and exactly what the whole exercise the last decade has been mainly about I cant understand why the significant transfer is being pushed upon Scarborough Centre by the Opposition. And what they think good will come out of it. Its exactly why we may end up with a one stop after all as all other non transfer options were blocked.

 

[amnesiajune]

This report highlights the problem. It's very significant and exactly what the whole exercise the last decade has been about? But here we are after such an event having the significant transfer being pushed upon Scarborough Centre

Hardly anyone would get an additional transfer added to their trip though. The people who currently transfer at Scarborough Centre will keep doing so, the people who currently transfer at Midland, Lawrence East or Ellesmere will transfer at STC or Kennedy instead. People who walk to Lawrence East will still have a bus (and potentially a train too) to Kennedy.

The only trip that gets much worse is one from Lawrence East to STC (it could be mitigated by moving the 131E from Brimley to Midland), and I don't see more than a few dozen people per day making that trip.

 

[Cobra]

Still no excuse on why there's so much lack of vision, imagination and creativity to have extended Line 2 to Sheppard via an elevated subway on Eglinton East and McCowan road.

1 stop subway plan with no Lawrence East is madness. No Sheppard is short-sided. The LRT project wasn't that much better either.

 

[OneCity]

Still no excuse on why there's so much lack of vision, imagination and creativity to have extended Line 2 to Sheppard via an elevated subway on Eglinton East and McCowan road.

1 stop subway plan with no Lawrence East is madness. No Sheppard is short-sided. The LRT project wasn't that much better either.

Its Political hardball now as the Opposition didn't get their entire way. They made it clear, Scarborough can have well connected subway with no stops so they can bash it or they can have an LRT with a transfer. Amazing. Nothing good that is going to come out of this crap.

Atleast Tory is pushing for Eglinton East LRT, as long as they don't try to spoil that funding when its design ready, hes only one vote and he already lost the Lawrence stop. I wouldn't be shocked. A higher order of vision is not allowed outside the Core in this City. That needs to change

 

[robmausser]

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ugh-subway-not-a-worthwhile-use-of-money.html



...."While removing a transfer at Kennedy does provide a "significant benefit""....

This report highlights the major problem here. Since its clearly significant and exactly what the whole exercise the last decade has been mainly about I cant understand why the significant transfer is being pushed upon Scarborough Centre by the Opposition. And what they think good will come out of it. Its exactly why we may end up with a one stop after all as all other non transfer options were blocked.

The best part is that not all subway trains will terminate at STC. They will short turn at Kennedy.

So most people will have to get off and wait for the one out of every 3 subway trains that will continue to STC! Basically a TRANSFER

 

[amnesiajune]

The best part is that not all subway trains will terminate at STC. They will short turn at Kennedy.

This is baseless speculation from random people (like us) on the internet. The TTC has never said anything to suggest that they'll be short-turning trains at Kennedy. If they do, in all likelihood it'll be done the same way as it is on the Spadina line - trains will short turn in the morning but not in the afternoon, so that most users don't have to make any transfer in either direction (they just have a slightly longer average wait in the morning).

 

[innsertnamehere]

The best part is that not all subway trains will terminate at STC. They will short turn at Kennedy.

So most people will have to get off and wait for the one out of every 3 subway trains that will continue to STC! Basically a TRANSFER

or they will do as people along the Spadina line do today already, and not enter a train until it is going to STC. The trains do say where they are going, so when you are waiting for your first train, if it says Kennedy, you don't get on. If it says STC, you get on.

 

[Cobra]

The best part is that not all subway trains will terminate at STC. They will short turn at Kennedy.

So most people will have to get off and wait for the one out of every 3 subway trains that will continue to STC! Basically a TRANSFER

Byford answered that question at the last council meeting regarding the project. There's no plan to short-turn trains at Kennedy. He added that ATC would make it even more efficient to manage the line

 

[Leo_Chan]

Byford answered that question at the last council meeting regarding the project. There's no plan to short-turn trains at Kennedy. He added that ATC would make it even more efficient to manage the line

Since Line 2 is expected to be ATC equipped by 2030, then that would mean there would be at most 4 years of inefficient terminus management at STC.

 

[rbt]

Since Line 2 is expected to be ATC equipped by 2030, then that would mean there would be at most 4 years of inefficient terminus management at STC.

ATC doesn't make all trains go to the end of the line. In fact, it'll do quite the opposite as turnarounds are easier (faster) with a branched terminus.

The main choke point, after station dwell, is turn-around time. The reason Chicago loop can get down to 45 second intervals (unscheduled but regularly happens) is because of branched service. TTC doesn't actually have multiple lines sharing a middle so they'll mimic it by staggering the turn-around locations.