Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Palma]

The vested interests being, political competitors. Tory is backed into a corner - he has to support the subway or he loses Scarborough's votership. If that votership is up for grabs, DoFo will ride in, promise the same subway, and grab the votes. Or GDB will want them.

I am really getting fed up with politicians, period.

- Paul

thats wrong. All of scarborough will not vote for Ford and not all of its residents are for the subway unless you live near scarborough town centre

 

[Hopkins123]

Oh to wit, if only the SRT never was and the subway was extended way back in the eighties like it was supposed to. You don't arbitrarily create transfer points (Kennedy) just 2 stops shy of the then newly under construction planned downtown core of a region. TYSSE, for all its faults got the city-building aspect right, even if it'll take decades after the subway opens to fully come to fruition.

Then not extending the SRT to Malvern/Morningside Hts in the nineties was yet another mistake. The SRT would be less of an orphan if it actually served more of a purpose than just shuttling people back and forth from just the Town Centre. It being elevated at Eglinton could have provided the basis for an argument to extend it west along that corridor as a proto-Crosstown RT line, fully grade-separated all the way to Pearson.

That some thirty odd years later we still don't know what to do with Scarborough and the eastern GTA's desperate need for rapid transit too, speaks to the general ineptitude of the politicians; lack of interest in funding anything more imaginative than piecemeal, band-aid solutions; and the public's general resigned acquiescence to it all.

 

[kEiThZ]

The answer to me right now, is the proposed infrastructure investment bank.

No infrastructure bank would touch an LRT or subway in Toronto. There's no profit in it. When they do so elsewhere, it's because there's a rate of return higher than prime. Not so sure taxpayers in Toronto would tolerate tax increases to pay higher private lending costs.

And how exactly would private financing work for a portion of a line which is what Scarborough would (regardless of LRT or subway)?

 

[BurlOak]

It would work the same as all other P3's.

Say it costs $4B to build and takes 5 years to build. The "bank" would get paid $200M per year (plus some for interest, etc.).
This way it shows up on government books as only $200M/ year and not $800M

 

[steveintoronto]

It would work the same as all other P3's.

Say it costs $4B to build and takes 5 years to build. The "bank" would get paid $200M per year (plus some for interest, etc.).
This way it shows up on government books as only $200M/ year and not $800M

Indeed, Montreal's REM is that, and Vancouver considering same, not to mention the myriad of PPP around the world:

Search Results
Surrey looks to private investment to fund transit projects
www.vancouversun.com/news/surrey+looks+private+investment...transit.../story.html
Jul 8, 2015 - SkyTrain travels past several Coast Mountain buses in Surrey. Surrey is looking to private investment as a possible saviour for a $2.1-billion ...
Is there a P3 on our rapid transit track? | The London Free Press
www.lfpress.com/2016/01/06/is-there-a-p3-on-our-rapid-transit-track
Jan 6, 2016 - Merchants, city hash out Old East rapid transit ro ... would be the biggest infrastructure investment in London history, creating rapid transit ... A P3 is a deal between the government and a private firm or consortium, who work ...
How big investors are shaping the (boring) future of transportation
www.cnbc.com/.../how-big-investors-are-shaping-the-boring-future-of-transportation....
Aug 20, 2014 - Big investors are shaping transportation in 2039 by betting on ... purchase of London Stansted Airport in 2013; Fortress Investment .... Not all private-capital appetite for transportation investing lines up perfectly with need.

[...]

The problem for SSE is that there's no business case, for either private or public. It is projected to carry fewer passengers than the present SRT. If private investment builds it, it's on the basis of the municipality paying a fixed amount of return.

 

[ShonTron]

No infrastructure bank would touch an LRT or subway in Toronto. There's no profit in it. When they do so elsewhere, it's because there's a rate of return higher than prime. Not so sure taxpayers in Toronto would tolerate tax increases to pay higher private lending costs.

And how exactly would private financing work for a portion of a line which is what Scarborough would (regardless of LRT or subway)?

Not necessarily true. As long as the municipality and/or other level of government is willing to pay back costs over the long-term, plus interest, there's money to be made. This is how the new hospitals are being built in Ontario, same with the Canada Line in Vancouver. The question (aside of whether the project itself is worthwhile) is whether it makes sense to pay the money now, or have the private sector charge it back over 50 or 100 years.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The RT from the Stoufville Line to McCowan should be salvaged and the rest of the ripped up tracks should be used to extend it east to Centennial and beyond so at least that stretch can still get rapid transit service.

 

[TOareaFan]

I am just gonna leave this here:

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2017/03/23/editorial-time-stop-scarborough-subway/

 

[Leo_Chan]

From: 40:00

Surface in Hydro Corridor:

Dream a little bit further:

"Extending the Bloor-Danforth is not a good idea, it's bad" is a great quote.

 

[cplchanb]

I am just gonna leave this here:

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2017/03/23/editorial-time-stop-scarborough-subway/

these editorials and whatnot are the biggest reasons why this project will NEVER take off within the next 20 years if at all.
I just despise people who consistently whine, complain and try to undermine such an important project because they have their own opinion.
Regardless of their merits the decision has been made and now is the time to move forward and not just circle on back because someone else
thinks something else is better. There is no 90% solution and to strive in vain to even approach a 85% at this time will only drive up the costs
and delay construction for a generation. It is these partisan indecisiveness and that just makes toronto democracy a laughing stock

 

[Hopkins123]

these editorials and whatnot are the biggest reasons why this project will NEVER take off within the next 20 years if at all.
I just despise people who consistently whine, complain and try to undermine such an important project because they have their own opinion.
Regardless of their merits the decision has been made and now is the time to move forward and not just circle on back because someone else
thinks something else is better. There is no 90% solution and to strive in vain to even approach a 85% at this time will only drive up the costs
and delay construction for a generation. It is these partisan indecisiveness and that just makes toronto democracy a laughing stock

The biggest reason is the respective governments not ponying up enough money to fund anything. A once in a generation "gift" of $100 billion could fund every last transit project the GTA on the books if they wanted to, but they don't so here we are.

 

[cplchanb]

The biggest reason is the respective governments not ponying up enough money to fund anything. A once in a generation "gift" of $100 billion could fund every last transit project the GTA on the books if they wanted to, but they don't so here we are.

That excuse can only go so far. Ok so the govt wont fund the majority of the projects...so what are you going to do about it? continue to beg and complain and hope that the stance will change?
Imo the mentality of the toronto govt and ttc is overdependance on the federal govt and not enough self determination. They need to think of more creative ways to generate funds and on the flip side
torontonians need to play their part as well and cant go whining when for example theres a 25c levy. stop blaming eachother and actually take forward steps

 

[Hopkins123]

That excuse can only go so far. Ok so the govt wont fund the majority of the projects...so what are you going to do about it? continue to beg and complain and hope that the stance will change?
Imo the mentality of the toronto govt and ttc is overdependance on the federal govt and not enough self determination. They need to think of more creative ways to generate funds and on the flip side
torontonians need to play their part as well and cant go whining when for example theres a 25c levy. stop blaming eachother and actually take forward steps

If it were up to me I'd make all of the Land Transfer Tax collected (both by the City and Province) be put into a dedicated purse for transit only up until the time that everything is fully built out (say over a 25 year period). If hard targets aren't met with the cash to back it up then this entire thread may as well be merged into the Fantasy thread because 774 pages later nothing's resolved.

 

[TOareaFan]

If it were up to me I'd make all of the Land Transfer Tax collected (both by the City and Province) be put into a dedicated purse for transit only up until the time that everything is fully built out (say over a 25 year period). If hard targets aren't met with the cash to back it up then this entire thread may as well be merged into the Fantasy thread because 774 pages later nothing's resolved.

what are the city land transfer taxes used for now? because if they are used for something else doesn't that need to be cut to have 100% of LTT dedicated to transit construction.

similarly, are you proposing that the City of Toronto, uniquely, get back from the Province all the LTT that QP collects on homes sold in Toronto? And, again, what does the province currently do with the LTT on Toronto home sales? How comfortable are you/we in cutting those services/programs?

 

[dowlingm]

Once again, for the people posting the monorail punch through a building and similar videos, explain how that will be built in Toronto when GdeB won't sacrifice a woodlot for his precious one stop subway.

I just despise people who consistently whine, complain and try to undermine such an important project because they have their own opinion.

Scarborough can have whatever the hell transit as long as it does not crater the ability of the city, with or without the assistance of higher government, to fund other capital priorities. Trudeau came up with 3.4bn yesterday over three years *for the entire country* at a time when there are several other cities looking to expand their transit systems.