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The Urban Jungle
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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Cobra said:
100% agree. There should be a report comparing the cost of both construction methods for the DRL. The savings could allow us to push the line to Spadina or Bathurst instead of just University.
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It's not just a matter of contruction inconvenience too, but digging to such depths negatively impacts transfer times. On Line 2, passengers can get back to platform level very quickly because that Line is so shallow. In Moscow, their stations are so deep that it takes multiple minutes to get to platform levels - so long that it is often faster to take a bus, than travel underground to get on a train.

Obviously the Relief Line and SSE won't be in as dire a situation as the Moscow Metro, but these depth of the proposed stations are deep enough that it's expected to have a notable impact on travel times. IIRC, the chief planner said they were evaluating how long it would take for people to reach the subway platform from the surface, to detrermine how it would impact the attractiveness of the service.

I haven't been able to find out exactly how deep STC station is proposed to be, but I believe it will be the deepest in the system. York Mills is presently the deepest, and it does take quite a bit of time to reach the platform from the surface. It's even a long walk from the underground bus depot to the train platform.

Cut/cover thing thing, and this would not be a problem.
 
amnesiajune said:
A station could be added at Lawrence/McCowan with the McCowan alignment.

It's not unprecedented. The North York Centre stop on Yonge was added to the subway 13 years after the Finch extension opened; 20 years after it was removed from the Yonge extension plans to save money.
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The subway cost is already out of control as is. A station will NOT be added at Lawrence, ever, as long as they continue on with the current deep-bore subway plan.


Cobra said:
Those inconveniences are human beings

Talking like someone who doesn't live there and wouldn't have to put up with it. You got to see this from their perspective...just a little.

I'm not from Scarborough and I'm insulted. I apologize for showing empathy for the Scarborough residents that I consider equally Torontonian as the rest of us.
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I am trying to find ways to reduce the cost of the subway. If they don't want the SRT to be shutdown, I can understand that. But they also don't want any properties to be expropriated. They also don't want a woodlot to be touched. They also don't want an entire road torn up by cut-and-cover construction. They don't want it elevated either because people find it ugly. So what is the solution? No matter what is proposed, a lot of them complain about it and their councillors listen.


They didn't ask for Lawrence East station to be transferred to Smarttrack, Tory did. You should start pointing fingers at the right place.
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The chief planner was the one who first proposed it, in an effort to save money and put it to better use with Crosstown East. Tory accepted that. So did Scarborough councillors. That argument is now out the window thanks to all the cost increases, and nothing is being done about it.
 
salsa said:
If they don't want the SRT to be shutdown, I can understand that. But they also don't want any properties to be expropriated. They also don't want a woodlot to be touched. They also don't want an entire road torn up by cut-and-cover construction. They don't want it elevated either because people find it ugly. So what is the solution? No matter what is proposed, a lot of them complain about it and their councillors listen.
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My advice to you is to not fall for the Toronto Star exaggeration and misleading articles (yes, they can stretch it too sometimes).

By "they" you mean "handful" of residents being affected. DRL would have the same reaction from the affected residents. If anything, the city should stop caving when a mighty group of 5+ people call the Star to stop a project. It's getting out of hand and people have caught up to it, hence studying Carlaw instead of just pursuing Pape Avenue.

I'd tell them it's cut and cover... deal with it. Residents on 1 street can't be the reason that we collectively pay an extra $2B+ for a subway that can be significantly cheaper.

I'd gladly lose 100 votes if delivering the subway on time and at lower cost bags me hundreds of thousands of votes...Seriously, sometimes I wonder how people think at city hall
 
TheTigerMaster said:
If Yonge street could put up with cut and cover construction, residents of Pape and McCowan can surely deal with something far less disrupting. If you live in a big city, construction is something you have to deal with.
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Aside from the stations, most of Yonge Street didn't put up with it though. Sheppard-Eglinton used tunnel boring machines, and Eglinton - College isn't under the street. Same for Bloor-Danforth (which didn't use any cut-and-cover under the road), University-Spadina (except for Union - Osgoode, all the under-road segments used TBMs) and Sheppard (built entirely using TBMs aside from the stations and Don River bridge).
 
amnesiajune said:
Aside from the stations, most of Yonge Street didn't put up with it though. Sheppard-Eglinton used tunnel boring machines, and Eglinton - College isn't under the street. Same for Bloor-Danforth (which didn't use any cut-and-cover under the road), University-Spadina (except for Union - Osgoode, all the under-road segments used TBMs) and Sheppard (built entirely using TBMs aside from the stations and Don River bridge).
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Actually expropriation for cut and cover was used for Yonge between Bloor and College, and the Bloor Danforth line - that's why you have a strip of parks and parking lots paralleling both and far more disruptive than mere cut and cover for stations or roads.

https://stevemunro.ca/2016/02/19/theres-a-new-subway-on-the-way/

University was only tunnelled between Osgoode and Museum to avoid disruption to the legislature and hospital row:

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5103.shtml

AoD
 
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W. K. Lis said:
As long as we have politicians who have their own "better" transit plan than their predecessor, and who will cancel their predecessor's plan for their own, transit expansion will always be delayed, delayed, and delayed.
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TBH I think we have done well to address the flaws of the plans from the last two Mayors and are moving forward.

Under Tory's conceptual design we have middle ground between the past two Mayors who left room by trying to blanket all transit issues into one technology. We now have:

1.The Eglinton LRT extension on the books to be funded which IMO is the most impactful line to be built for Scarborough as a whole.
2.SCC will be connected directly to City's main infrastructure. Ask the last 2 Mayors and the runner up how important that is to Scarborough residents. Don't believe the pro downtown media polls.
3.Sheppard will be reviewed and likely a subway extension. So Sheppard is all thats left to argue over and what ever happens on Sheppard will determine how Malvern is connected.
4. Scarborough-Durham BRT
5. Oh and the GO RER thingy slowly dissolving back to its native form.

Aside from Smarttrack which was just a campaign "Hail Mary" to beat Doug Ford there is really not much to cancel. People have had their voices heard thru Ford for what was left out of Millers plan. Just a matter of dealing with the real issues now for the whole City. Having a concrete transit fund and without that there will be many delays...
 
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Do we know how much more expensive boring is? I tried googling for an answer but came up blank, but maybe I wasn't searching for the right thing.

Theres the cost of the machines, but also the fact that the stations need to be dug around 2(?) times deeper, since the tunnel itself must be deeper. Plus entrance and exit holes for the machine. Like, are we talking a billion dollars difference, couple hundred millions, tens of millions?
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
That's arguing against a false argument though - the amount you pay is always driven by decision within the political unit, not the comparative cost of, and the spread of actual services rendered per se. It never had anything to do with fairness along the latter lines; nor is "fairness" a philosophical argument for it.

AoD
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exactly its a fallacy. The services are the same.
 
amnesiajune said:
Aside from the stations, most of Yonge Street didn't put up with it though. Sheppard-Eglinton used tunnel boring machines, and Eglinton - College isn't under the street. Same for Bloor-Danforth (which didn't use any cut-and-cover under the road), University-Spadina (except for Union - Osgoode, all the under-road segments used TBMs) and Sheppard (built entirely using TBMs aside from the stations and Don River bridge).
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I don't know why you have to nit-pick. Cut and cover was used on the Yonge Line, period. Whether it was under the road or not, it was still cut and cover. It was still very disruptive, but worth it. The point he made was, why can't the same be done in Scarborough where it's less challenging to do so, if it saves money? What's the excuse?
 
amnesiajune said:
They don't pay a de facto commercial rate. They're in a property class called multi-residential, and Toronto is the only city that charges three times more for multi-residential than single-family homes and condos.



Just to name a few...

- Free access to TPL, the largest neighbourhood-based library system in the world. That's not just books, but also includes free entry to a lot of attractions in the city.
- Reduced-price access to city programs.
- Access to proposed TTC discounts if they're a low-income household.
- Access to specialty programs in Toronto schools. The only one open to people out of the city is TOPS.
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so other cities can have reduced prices for city program to if they wanted to. Access to PROPOSED TTC discounts - no one is stopping other cities form doing this with their transit and the same thing can be said of the other things other than TPL. But even access to TPL how much can it cost for others to access?
 
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