Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[ssiguy2]

Of course the fastest and easiest to build would also save a cool $2.5 billion on the SRT replacement section is just to run MK111 cars and grade separate the Eglinton line so the entire corridor is grade separated SkyTrain. This is what Metrolinx wanted to originally do until Miller's LRT or nothing transit plan written on the back of napkin come into vogue. No other city on the planet would EVER consider tearing down a functional rapid transit line to be replaced by another along the same route.

LRT was the worse choice for both Eglinton and SRT.............costs are nearly the same but FAR lower capacity, slower, less reliable, more disruptive to the road, frequency potential only half of a grade separated system, and more expensive to run because it can't be automated.

 

[Dan416]

Mk III not 111

 

[BurlOak]

Of course the fastest and easiest to build would also save a cool $2.5 billion on the SRT replacement section is just to run MK111 cars and grade separate the Eglinton line so the entire corridor is grade separated SkyTrain. This is what Metrolinx wanted to originally do until Miller's LRT or nothing transit plan written on the back of napkin come into vogue. No other city on the planet would EVER consider tearing down a functional rapid transit line to be replaced by another along the same route.

LRT was the worse choice for both Eglinton and SRT.............costs are nearly the same but FAR lower capacity, slower, less reliable, more disruptive to the road, frequency potential only half of a grade separated system, and more expensive to run because it can't be automated.

This was obviously the best solution 10years ago, 5 years ago, even 2 years ago.
The problem is we need to find the best solution now, or even 18 months in the future when we may get some more intelligent (and less political) staff at Metrolinx. Now, the tunneling west of the Scenic (Brentcliffe?) Portal is done. The Don't Mills mini tunnel and station are underway. The LRT order is well underway.

The question is whether we can still grade separate the line - and how?
Can we still cancel the B-D subway extension?
Can we still convert to SkyTrain?

It is also interesting that in the past 10 years, An idiot like Rob Ford was the politician who came closest to this ideal solution. Michael Schabas was also the only transit planner who had the courage to go against the mainstream political view.

 

[BurlOak]

I posted this very crude mock-up years back. With a duplicate of the Celestica interchange, you could access the platforms with a simple crosswalk.
View attachment 94723 a few years back. With a duplicate of the Celestica interchange, you could access the station with a simple crosswalk.

This still has 2 main problems.

1. Pedestrians can still walk across the tracks. Even if they don't, the LRT must drive accordingly and slow down.
2. 2 lanes are lost to traffic under the CPR bridge.

Maybe the past few days of posts belong in the Crosstown thread, but this is bound to happen when people propose a connected network as opposed to the discreet lines proposed in Transit City.

 

[WislaHD]

Michael Schabas was also the only transit planner who had the courage to go against the mainstream political view.

Which doesn't make Michael Schabas right.

I was personally aghast at many of the conclusions he made on the Eglinton line in his Neptis report. As well as his disregard for the Relief Line.

 

[BurlOak]

I dont recall exactly what Schabas said about the DRL, but I suspect the current DRL short (Pale to Queen) will provide next to no relief for huge cost. So in that sense, the DRL provides minimal immediate benefit.
For a DRL to work, it must stop more people from riding the Yonge line, not just reduce ( or prevent from increasing beyond today's numbers) the people transferring so the Yonge line, can run with a few seconds lower frequency due to the minimalimprovement in dwell time.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I dont recall exactly what Schabas said about the DRL, but I suspect the current DRL short (Pale to Queen) will provide next to no relief for huge cost. So in that sense, the DRL provides minimal immediate benefit.
For a DRL to work, it must stop more people from riding the Yonge line, not just reduce ( or prevent from increasing beyond today's numbers) the people transferring so the Yonge line, can run with a few seconds lower frequency due to the minimalimprovement in dwell time.

Well that's why the Don Mills line needs to be built. Most of the problem with Yonge comes from the bus routes from the east have to go straight to Yonge. With routes like York Mills, Lawrence stopping at the DRL on their way to Yonge, hopefully we can relieve a lot of pressure.

 

[ssiguy2]

While I appreciate that the vehicles may have been ordered you have to remember who the supplier is. Bombardier has been so late in the streetcar department that I'm sure they wouldn't bitch about changing the order to SkyTrain cars. The SkyTrain always was and continues to be the best option for a STC/Eglinton Crosstown. With the billions saved on the SRT replacement they could grade separate the Eglinton portion and pay for a good chunk of the western extension to Renforth.

 

[Cobra]

I guess I should be the one to deviate this thread from subway vs LRT.

What are you guys expectation for Scarborough Centre subway station?

A) More or less in line with the other Bloor-Danforth Stations with a modern touch?

B) Modern Stations like the Spadina extension?

C)World Class Station?

The thread title is DESIGN phase and not speculative. The subway is happening.

Can we talk about how the station might look like, architecture, bus terminal etc... instead of re-opening the Scarborough subway file that even city hall finally dropped?

 

[smallspy]

Which doesn't make Michael Schabas right.

Michael Schabas will write for you whatever the hell you want him to, provided you wire him enough money.

And don't think for a second that he's the only one. We've got another outfit like him not too far away from Toronto.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Rainforest]

I would actually be happy if they just made a surface LRT along Danforth-McCowan. This would actually place Lawrence East at the hospital and let's them go straight north up McCowan to replace the super busy McCowan North bus.

Money saved from grade separation can be use to launch Eglinton East at the same time.

That's a plan that will actually serve Scarborough well.

A single surface light rail line cannot handle the peak demand between STC and Kennedy. The peak demand will be in the 9K to 10K range, while a surface line can reliably handle at most 5K to 6K.

I can think of a few network configurations that could divert part of the demand from STC and thus make the surface LRT option viable; but I don't think any of them are realistic at this point.

It will be a subway; the question that remains relevant is the choice of route that can save some money.

 

[OneCity]

With the subway is moving ahead as one stop. The RT platform could be refurbished in the future to be a City Center East-West collector line and extend thru Centennial College to Malvern to connect to the Crosstown East extension.

 

[44 North]

It certainly seems like the most cost effective option would just be to rebuild the SRT. Speaking of Mark 3's I was out filming for my Youtube in Vancouver and several of Skytrains new Mark 3's, enjoy! (Go to 4 mins 40 seconds)

Thanks for the video! Vancouver's system is great. I'm not a supporter of Skytrain(TM) as a Bombardier brand, however I believe a similar setup (i.e smaller subways) to be an excellent unstudied option for the GTA's rapid transit future.

I also commend posters like @BurlOak for bringing the potential to our attention. It's not even really fantasy stuff since we had ridership studies done. Using smaller-sized subways was a huge missed opportunity. Didn't even have to be MkIII, seeing that there are numerous manufacturers/vehicles out there. To think we almost had a 30km subway line, and if not for political meddling it could've been built for significantly less per km than the McGuinty proposal.

 

[kEiThZ]

A single surface light rail line cannot handle the peak demand between STC and Kennedy.

Nobody said it'll be a single line. If you want to move out of the dedicated SRT corridor, you'll need several lines to diffuse the demand. That's why I suggested Eglinton East needs to be built as well. And more broadly, you'll need GO RER/SmartTrack to absorb some demand from the north.

 

[kEiThZ]

With the subway is moving ahead as one stop. The RT platform could be refurbished in the future to be a City Center East-West collector line and extend thru Centennial College to Malvern to connect to the Crosstown East extension.

Depending on the subway alignment, I can see them demolishing the entire station and building a new one.