Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

So is the surface alignment still a possibility? I get that city council voted on the single station McCowan route, but is that more of a temporary formality? TTM linked the 2013 Surface Feasibility Study to me earlier, and I feel like it wasn't brought up in any debate. It's a bit wonky, but perhaps it would offer the compromise people want: relative affordability and a subway.

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In Early 2016 council directed TTC to study the surface alignment. The TTC studied a hook shaped alignment, where the extension would travel east from Kennedy and then travel northwest to the existing SRT corridor. The TTC determined this was not desirable due to high costs (almost as high as McCowan alignment) and added travel time.

But this is not the alignment that Metrolinx studied and determined was possible. I don't know why they didn't study the Metrolinx alignment.

 

[Rainforest]

In Early 2016 council directed TTC to study the surface alignment. The TTC studied a hook shaped alignment, where the extension would travel east from Kennedy and then travel northwest to the existing SRT corridor. The TTC determined this was not desirable due to high costs (almost as high as McCowan alignment) and added travel time.

But this is not the alignment that Metrolinx studied and determined was possible. I don't know why they didn't study the Metrolinx alignment.

I can't know for sure, but my one guess is this: the Metrolinx alignment requires a new Kennedy station. The existing station structure would have to be either completely abandoned, or used for emergencies / diversions only. That would be a very visible "waste" for people who are not familiar with the technical details of this project but evaluate the TTC's work from the formal perspective.

Thus, they might look better if they build a more expensive route and spend more money overall, but do not abandon the existing structure.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I get your point. I just don't see how Sheppard can get funded in the today's environment.

John Tory can lose 10% of his vote if he backtracks on SSE and allows it to die. But he will not lose more than 1% if he refuses to entertain Sheppard. That's a rounding error. Then, why would he commit to take one more burden and carry it.

The provincial government is roughly in the same situation.

Pretty simple: payroll tax and property tax increase. Plus another 300-500 from Queens Park, and that's that. Those seats will also be vulnerable to conservatives in 2018.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I can't know for sure, but my one guess is this: the Metrolinx alignment requires a new Kennedy station. The existing station structure would have to be either completely abandoned, or used for emergencies / diversions only. That would be a very visible "waste" for people who are not familiar with the technical details of this project but evaluate the TTC's work from the formal perspective.

Thus, they might look better if they build a more expensive route and spend more money overall, but do not abandon the existing structure.

So is the surface alignment still a possibility? I get that city council voted on the single station McCowan route, but is that more of a temporary formality? TTM linked the 2013 Surface Feasibility Study to me earlier, and I feel like it wasn't brought up in any debate. It's a bit wonky, but perhaps it would offer the compromise people want: relative affordability and a subway.

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In Early 2016 council directed TTC to study the surface alignment. The TTC studied a hook shaped alignment, where the extension would travel east from Kennedy and then travel northwest to the existing SRT corridor. The TTC determined this was not desirable due to high costs (almost as high as McCowan alignment) and added travel time.

But this is not the alignment that Metrolinx studied and determined was possible. I don't know why they didn't study the Metrolinx alignment.

The SRT route is the best option to be honest. Part of the reason why this boondoggle is closing on 4 billion is because of the McCowan alignment itself. It's too costly. SRT alignment will also bring the subway to Malvern and Cenntennial. That way you don't have to extend the Crosstown East to Sheppard and Morningside. Also serves poor communities, which would be a good benefit of this.

 

[robmausser]

The SRT route is the best option to be honest. Part of the reason why this boondoggle is closing on 4 billion is because of the McCowan alignment itself. It's too costly. SRT alignment will also bring the subway to Malvern and Cenntennial. That way you don't have to extend the Crosstown East to Sheppard and Morningside. Also serves poor communities, which would be a good benefit of this.

Yep, I really wish they would go with the SRT alignment. Its unfortunate we are wasting so much money on a single tunnelled stop.

 

[Dan416]

It really can't be that hard to rebuild Kennedy station and the curves to route a subway train onto them can it? Do the stations need to be lengthened?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I can't know for sure, but my one guess is this: the Metrolinx alignment requires a new Kennedy station. The existing station structure would have to be either completely abandoned, or used for emergencies / diversions only. That would be a very visible "waste" for people who are not familiar with the technical details of this project but evaluate the TTC's work from the formal perspective.

Thus, they might look better if they build a more expensive route and spend more money overall, but do not abandon the existing structure.

I doubt it. If true, that would be grossly unprofessional. They were tasked with determining the technical feasibility; not with deciding which would be better PR.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yep, I really wish they would go with the SRT alignment. Its unfortunate we are wasting so much money on a single tunnelled stop.

Yup. Plus no Kennedy rebuild either. also much easier for the coming Sheppard East loop.

It really can't be that hard to rebuild Kennedy station and the curves to route a subway train onto them can it? Do the stations need to be lengthened?

I doubt it. If true, that would be grossly unprofessional. They were tasked with determining the technical feasibility; not with deciding which would be better PR.

Metrolinx switched from subway to LRT to subway for convenience I don't put this above them! It would be very expensive to reconfigure Kennedy as well.

 

[salsa]

I think that 20 min is an exaggeration. STC is bounded by Brimley, McCowan, Ellesmere, and Hwy 401. That's a rectangle 800 m wide and 1,200 m long. Three out of 4 corners are occupied by a parkette, a 401 ramp, and a supermarket, thus not suitable for office jobs. Assuming that the subway station and the bus terminal remain close to the middle of the area, most of office buildings should be within 1,000 m walking distance from the station

You're probably right that it was an exaggeration, since I didn't verify my claims on google maps. But as for the actual boundaries of STC, the planning department has a broader definition than yours. When I said that some people would face a lengthy walk, I was referring to some of the office buildings in the McCowan Precinct.

It's been argued that the subway better supports development in STC, but the chief planner admitted that the LRT would better serve city building goals than the subway, because its east-west alignment would better facilitate expansion of the STC area. There would have been two stations instead of one, plus two additional stops at Brimley and Bellamy that was to be considered in the future as those areas develop. This was a "flaw" in the subway plan that city planning identifies in its report. I would also add that Scarborough Centre station will be relocated under a parking lot with the current subway plan, away from all the condos that have developed around the SRT and at Brimley. It will destroy the elegant pedestrian connections that have existed for 30 years between the SRT, shopping mall, Civic Centre and Albert Campbell Square. Which to be honest, this saddens me.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So is the surface alignment still a possibility? I get that city council voted on the single station McCowan route, but is that more of a temporary formality? TTM linked the 2013 Surface Feasibility Study to me earlier, and I feel like it wasn't brought up in any debate. It's a bit wonky, but perhaps it would offer the compromise people want: relative affordability and a subway.

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*Looking over the costs chart, take notice of the difference between the elevated station and underground station. $24,000,000 vs $240,000,000...ten times more! That's unreal. Hopefully people read that number and get why there are supporters of using elevated rail for subway expansion.

Should be noted that this pricing does not include the price of vehicles. The SRT alignment would require significantly more vehicles than the McCowan alignment, which erases a lot of the cost savings of the SRT alignment. However the cost escalations of the McCowan alignment likely still mean that the SRT corridor would be cheaper. And personally, even in a case where both alignments would cost the same, I'd opt for the longer SRT alignment with five stations between Sheppard and Kennedy, vs McCowan alignment's one station.

 

[BurlOak]

I can't know for sure, but my one guess is this: the Metrolinx alignment requires a new Kennedy station. The existing station structure would have to be either completely abandoned, or used for emergencies / diversions only. That would be a very visible "waste" for people who are not familiar with the technical details of this project but evaluate the TTC's work from the formal perspective.

Thus, they might look better if they build a more expensive route and spend more money overall, but do not abandon the existing structure.

Old Kennedy would just be sold to developers and condos built. There would be no lasting white elephant.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Some questions.

"Big Bend" What's that point of going all the way to McCowan and then turning back. If you want the station where the current one is, why not Brimley or Midland and reduce rather than increasing the length? How do you pay for the extra cost of running buses, since you'd have to demolish the last two stations of the SRT to build the subway station?

"SRT alignment" I've never fully understood why the study concluded that the entire elevated structure had to be torn down and rebuilt. It's about the same width as the existing elevated subway segments, and the curves are not that serious. Is the load bearing insufficient?

 

[44 North]

Some questions.

"SRT alignment" I've never fully understood why the study concluded that the entire elevated structure had to be torn down and rebuilt. It's about the same width as the existing elevated subway segments, and the curves are not that serious. Is the load bearing insufficient?

I was interested in this, it's touched on only briefly: The proposed subway alignment would run elevated within the existing corridor. The existing elevated structure is not designed to carry the loads of a subway train, is already 35 years old and the current SRT alignment would not be feasible for the subway trains to navigate. Hence the existing structure would be demolished and replaced with a new elevated guideway. To allow for a higher design speed throughout, the new elevated guideway would depart from the current alignment slightly, at various locations.

Basically the MkI is 2.5m wide, our subways are 3.14. The Line 3 trains are also shorter with the track system spec'd to their unique shortness. What interested me was whether we could reuse straighter sections of the support columns. But apparently not. Interestingly our subways are only heavier than MkI simply because they are larger. Their weight per square metre is actually a bit lower than the MkI (though I guess weight per bogie is more important).

T1: 458kg/ m2
TR: 459kg/m2
Mk: 472kg/m2
Flexity Outlook: 628kg/m2

 

[CapitalSeven]

Thanks. I'm not sure I actually believe what's written there as there is no real evidence presented. I agree with you that part of it probably is re-usable.

 

[Palma]

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More subway news!


After pushing for its approval, subway champions are not happy with where it will be built.


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The new route he proposes, which he calles the Big Bend, would add another 280 metres of tunnel. He wouldn't say how much this would increase the cost.

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And of course, Debaeremaeker also had a few words to say about the star article which exposed misleading information that the mayor used to kill the LRT. “They throw out numbers”.



http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...ay-champions-want-ttc-s-likely-route-changed/

well I am sure the Liberals will be out so Brad Duguid won't need to worry about anything being built over his dead body