Cobra
Senior Member
I work there, and moved to Yonge and Eglinton recently, in a few years, NYCC will raise a lot of eyebrows.
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I work there, and moved to Yonge and Eglinton recently, in a few years, NYCC will raise a lot of eyebrows.
WislaHD
Superstar
Another way to describe it is like the length between King and Davisville Stations.
Practically my entire subway commute to school (Eglinton to Dundas) is just one stop in Scarborough.
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Torontovibe
Senior Member
Because like I have said in the past, John Tory is just Rob Ford in a better suit!
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
All the centres in Toronto, with the exception of Downtown Toronto, have been doing quite poorly. Even Yonge/Eglinton was regarded by Staff as performing poorly (even with the Crosstown), and that's the most successful of all the centres.
The reason they've doing so poorly is precisely because these centres need to compete with the location of Downtown Toronto and low cost of the 905. Both Downtown Toronto and the 905 aren't going anywhere; these urban centres will need to compete with them under all circumstances. It doesn't matter whether or not these centres would be successful under a different context, as those contexts will never exist.
My concern with the centres plan is that Staff have not outlined how they plan to negate the two primary problems with our Centres (poor location compared to Downtown Toronto and poor price competitiveness compared to 905), nor have we seen any notable interest in commercial developments of the centres. All I'm hearing from Staff is a lot of wishful thinking. Rearranging sidewalks isn't going to make these centres successful; if that we're true, Yonge-Eglinton would be a resounding success.
Franky, seeing how the City has failed to attract a notable amount of commercial development to Yonge-Eglinton, the most successful of our centres, with perhaps greater connectivity than any Centre in the GTHA (two subways), I don't see how any of our Centres will be successful. This place, the most successful and competitive of our Centres, only accounts for 1% of commercial development in the City of Toronto. It's a blip on the radar.
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WislaHD
Superstar
Not to mention how any of those centres would compete with the plans for our own Canary Wharf at the Unilever site.
coffey1
Active Member
We need to change what we consider successful.
Introduce lower business taxes for these satellite areas & that's really all you can do. Capital always flows from the outside in & always will. But these areas are growing in population which in turn will make then attractive to employers if the price is right. The 905 is not much cheaper contrary to belief... But im aware many business get turned by Toronto's taxation & bureaucracy when it so much easier to deal with Municipalities rolling out the red carpet for them. Toronto is not used to chasing business. Just like transit they need to learn not to be a one trick pony & learn to compete if they want to attract more business to these areas..
We need to understand these will be attractive commuter areas 1st and business areas 2nd. That doesn't make them unsuccessful as long as the City has business growing and the people of the City can all access these job areas in an efficient, integrated manner. That as well will take time. But better to do it right
Palma
Senior Member
was it not the last time they had some sort of debate /vote or perhaps it was a study to extend crosstown east and west and the 1 stop subway to STC. And now the same vote but lets add the downsview extension and sherway to the mix. No wonder I get so confused with all these votes. Can you imagine the residents that do not follow this transit stuff
Palma
Senior Member
it only has condos - city of toronto offices, TDSB. Trimark, federal gov;t building closer to sheppard
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
NYCC accounts for only 0.75% of employment growth within the City of Toronto.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I wasn't around when the Centres plan was established all those decades ago, but reading up on the history of them, it seems to me that they were merely aspirational and political in nature; to show what the former boroughs could build without the support of the Toronto. Basically, "Toronto has a downtown, so we need one to".
I don't know how much we've invested in our Centres to date, but I'm not convinced their tiny employment levels justify billions of dollars in investment. And having lived near two of the Centres (Yonge-Eglinton and Scarborough Centre), I'm not convinced they play a particularly important role in community building either. I don't feel that either of those centres offered anything that other areas in the community didn't offer, beyond being the locations of transit stations.
I don't know how much we've invested in our Centres to date, but I'm not convinced their tiny employment levels justify billions of dollars in investment. And having lived near two of the Centres (Yonge-Eglinton and Scarborough Centre), I'm not convinced they play a particularly important role in community building either. I don't feel that either of those centres offered anything that other areas in the community didn't offer, beyond being the locations of transit stations.
WislaHD
Superstar
No it won't. Scarborough Town Centre even with a subway extension will be a shitty shitty shitty place to commute to downtown from.
Just reaching Kennedy Station alone from STC by subway would be as long a distance as my entire subway trip from Eglinton to Dundas. From Kennedy, people have to commute all the way to Bloor-Yonge and face the apocalyptic transfer there, somehow squeezing onto the then over-capacity 36,000 peak hour Yonge line.
This is not an argument against the subway, just to be clear. It would be good for those poor commuters to be able to get to Kennedy without needing to transfer. This is an argument against the attractiveness of STC.
syn
Senior Member
Transit planning in Toronto is an embarrassment. The LRT is a fantastic option for Scarborough - and for $3+ billion you could probably get 2 lines that would serve Scarborough residents far better than a single, 6km subway extension.
We're going to end up paying around $4 billion for a solution less effective than the RT, while the city desperately needs a DRT for a line already over capacity.
Tory might as well be Ford when it comes to transit.
We're going to end up paying around $4 billion for a solution less effective than the RT, while the city desperately needs a DRT for a line already over capacity.
Tory might as well be Ford when it comes to transit.
kEiThZ
Superstar
So because NYCC didn't become like downtown Toronto we should quit developing areas? What?
Most of Scarborough would be quite happy to have at SCC, what North York has NYCC. A good bit of dense residential. Some good community spaces. Some retail. And some commercial buildings.
Keesmat suggests that streets can be reconfigured to support development with the subway. Where was that sort of thinking for the LRT? They knew that the LRT would replace the no growth SRT stations. Look at that 7 station list. Which locations would have new development other than Midland and McCowan? Even extension sites like Markham, Centennial College and Sheppard, are largely built out (save a plaza or fast food joint to be torn down). With the subway McCowan still has development potential. The only real loss may be Midland. And any of that growth can be centered around the subway station at McCowan.
If they were being completely honest, the best corridors for Transit City style corridors would be McCowan and Morningside and possibly Kennedy (or maybe Warden). As extensions of Eglinton. And running on the surface, at-grade. The grade separated LRT which effectively parallels Progress from Midland to Sheppard is overkill. Just to replace the SRT and sell LRT. They could have just as easily run an LRT at-grade on Progress.
Most of Scarborough would be quite happy to have at SCC, what North York has NYCC. A good bit of dense residential. Some good community spaces. Some retail. And some commercial buildings.
Keesmat suggests that streets can be reconfigured to support development with the subway. Where was that sort of thinking for the LRT? They knew that the LRT would replace the no growth SRT stations. Look at that 7 station list. Which locations would have new development other than Midland and McCowan? Even extension sites like Markham, Centennial College and Sheppard, are largely built out (save a plaza or fast food joint to be torn down). With the subway McCowan still has development potential. The only real loss may be Midland. And any of that growth can be centered around the subway station at McCowan.
If they were being completely honest, the best corridors for Transit City style corridors would be McCowan and Morningside and possibly Kennedy (or maybe Warden). As extensions of Eglinton. And running on the surface, at-grade. The grade separated LRT which effectively parallels Progress from Midland to Sheppard is overkill. Just to replace the SRT and sell LRT. They could have just as easily run an LRT at-grade on Progress.
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coffey1
Active Member
The only solid LRT line is still moving forward today. Sheppard and the SLRT were "Band-Aid" solutions. A surface subway can do what the SLRT did only better. As for Sheppard, I have even tried myself to accept the extra transfer pushed on Sheppard residents as long as there was a compromise with the SLRT was being converted to subway. I really would like to avoid another 30 years of debate. But I get that the design on Sheppard was truly unacceptable & divisive. So unfortunately the residents around that line are actually more inconvenienced & more debate is needed.
I also think we are closer to funding the DRL today than yesterday. The sooner Toronto's main transit areas stop attacking areas its own City from growing with fair integration and telling them whats best. The sooner we can all start to lobby, tax appropriately & the quicker the Political fighting will stop and a funding model can be achieved.
LRT, LRT, LRT was the cheapest solution without any thought to fair integration
SUBWAYS, SUWAYS, SUBWAY was the most expensive solution without much thought for toward priority areas
Both very extreme Political plans, both had merits in differing areas of Scarborough and neither plan worked effectively on its own. But if we fund and design a more thought out network of both technologies we are giving the best chance for the City to grow unified. Build it once, build it right or don't build it at all.
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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No because we have two example that didn't work. NYCC, Kipling/Islington and SCC should transition to being "lifestyle" centers. It's the fact the companies prefer the office parks and downtown over them that kills anything. Like coffey said, you can lower taxes but not even that would help at this point.