Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

I just hear alot of Rob Ford blame. Yes the guys a baffoon but hes not the cause of this mess.

1. The Designers & Politicians choosing the route & technology of the original RT
2. The Politicians who chose to build the North York Subway
3. The Politicians who chose not to convert the Sheppard stubway to integrate LRT fairly
4. The Politicians who chose not to improves the RT even though GO RER would cover near the absurd Industrial stops
5. The McGuinty government for poorly funding transit City and playing games with Sheppard by cutting it back & dropping the SMLRT of the radar
6. The Province announcing subway extensions to Richmond Hill/Vaughan

So much blame on Ford. He didn't create this neglect for Toronto's suburbs he just acknowledged it. It goes further than transit & it goes further than Scarborough but this is still a big reason.

Only way out of Subways is to build something useful for all Toronto's suburbs. Something that is efficient, convenient and attractive enough to get people out of cars & provide a respectable local network & effective connections to Toronto main transit arteries.

If no one want to fund or build that. Then enjoy you Politics & subway debates. It's insane that outsiders cant understand this, although when you have a Polarizing Political media giant on the left which controls & sends a strong biased transit narrative. The you have other Political Media company on the right which choose to stay silent on transit for fear of saying the T word. I guess this is what we get. No one politically has Scarborough's best interest when it comes to transit.

 

[rbt]

It's funny. But I think the subway is not likely. I think everybody is starting to realize they've gotten in over their heads. Nobody has a way out though.

Standard mechanism is to delay beyond an election and let the next government (or a recession) cancel it. This project certainly hasn't seen any timelines being shortened.

 

[rbt]

Cancelling would be a disaster especially with the other level of governments wanting to fund transit

There's a federal, municipal, and possibly even another federal election to be had before this thing gets to the funding stage. The EA hasn't even started yet and we already have one organization taking the proposal to court (BILD will lose but that they're trying it notable).

Tory will will probably win his. The others getting a majority Liberal again are much less certain.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Doubt that will happen. Project has tri party support at the provincial level, survived the transfer of government at the Federal level, and Tory will most likely win a second term in 2018 barring some unforseen circumstance.


Besides, by the time we get to 2018 for this to get cancelled the cost of cancellation would vastly outweigh any savings. The TTC will be hundreds of millions into development at that point, and likely approaching tendering.

 

[rbt]

Doubt that will happen. Project has tri party support at the provincial level, survived the transfer of government at the Federal level, and Tory will most likely win a second term in 2018 barring some unforseen circumstance.

The EA's for the subway and Smart Track through this section will be interesting. It's going to take a lot of interesting number work to justify both projects with within Metrolinx's standard Business Case template.

 

[kEiThZ]

What's the cost if they just go 3-stop to STC? Really. Sheppard can be branched down McCowan to STC. And Eglinton can be kept at grade through Kennedy to continue onwards to the GO station at least.

The subway maybe expensive. But it won't kill LRT for the other corridors. The only trip generator that gets hurt with all this is Centennial College. But then again, they run a quick shuttle service from SC now and nobody seems to mind it.

 

[BurlOak]

A McCowan LRT.

Of course, branches require grade separated trunks which exist from Jane to McCowan on the Eglinton line and Bathurst to Markham Road on the Sheppard line.

For Scarborough, aside from the Finch LRT, it fits into the current budget.

 

[Rainforest]

McCowan LRT (on-street) cannot handle the anticipated demand between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy Station. The peak demand is at least 8,000 for the LRT option.

Either you would have to build two LRT lines, one up McCowan, and one along the existing SRT route. Or, would have to overhaul the bus network, and send a lot of buses all the way to Kennedy Stn instead of terminating at STC.

Honestly, I don't think either of the above options is practical.

Practical options are either the subway or the SLRT.

 

[kEiThZ]

Those demand numbers. Fungible. Especially when you consider GO RER and/or SmartTrack. So much of that peak demand is core bound. What happens when you offer them a commute on GO RER with 20-30 minute savings?

Besides, I thought at-grade LRT could handle that kind of demand. Heck, they go all bus today when the RT breaks down and somehow manage.

 

[Cobra]

I'd say a bit of both, but part and parcel with other things (e.g not amending their OP to facilitate accelerated expansion of their urban boundary for thousands of new single family homes, and perhaps adding ingredients found in virtually every other downtown centre like those spoken about on the previous pages). But keep in mind that even though they have a steep hill to climb, their p2g density target of 200 jobs/ppl per ha is only half of that for similar mobility hub UGCs.

View attachment 60785

I can see why Scarborough people get pissy about some people trying to take away their planned subway when those same people talk about extending the Yonge line further and further north, yet Scarborough is too far for a subway to go. If that's not a double standard I don't know what is.

Bingo. Despite subway being unnecessary if the merged "Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown" was still on the table and happening, this is exactly why when you come across data such as this, it's hard not to see the other point of view on this matter.

Subways in York region are being build & planned with the slogan "Build it and they'll come" which is something a certain Rob Ford used to say. Granted there are other factors explaining that, it's hard not to see residents of Scarborough resentment on the matter.

I've seen many comments making fun of Scarborough residents, editorials that are pro subway etc... and some of those comments are really not nice at all.

Instead of blaming and making fun of these residents that wants a subway instead of the LRT, I'd like to see more blame going towards the REAL responsibles of this mess. Anti-LRT residents, Pro-Subway activists are the SYMPTOMS. The ROOT of the problem lies with TTC & City Council who failed Scarborough for decades on the transport file.

Forget about technology (London's DLR and Vancouver Skytrain are a success)
-If the RT was built on the right corridor from the get go
-If Kennedy station was build the right way from the get go
-If the RT was properly maintained and not abandoned to ruin

We wouldn't be talking about this. The RT would be like the Skytrain and we would be talking expansion at a fraction of the price.

Not living in Scarborough, but I can 100% understand where the resentment comes from and why they aren't as quick to trust city hall and TTC on the LRT as they once did for the RT.

Those that mean that they deserve only a subway? Not necessarily.
Are they too blame for not trusting TTC and Toronto while demanding subways? I don't believe so and it's quite logical and understandable.

Is City Hall & TTC the true culprit of this PR and planning nightmare? ABSOLUTELY
This is their mess that will cost all of us. They have the responsibility to fix it and they did have that opportunity with the proposed "Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown". Unfortunately, City Hall killed it because they didn't like who was pitching it (Rob Ford)...led by someone's inflated ego & ambition (Karen Stinz).

That right there was the major blow to LRT in Scarborough because I don't recall that area opposing that plan. Since it died, it was back to "Subways, Subways, Subways"

I said my piece on the matter.

 

[ssiguy2]

No matter what Toronto eventually decides, it better get it's ass in gear. The feds will not be willing to wait for Toronto's endless environmental reviews and community consultations when dolling out money. There are too many other cities that already have all their ducks in a row and are just waiting for the cheque to get their shovels in the ground.

Remember that $300 Toronto was offered for the Sheppard LRT and got none due to Ford? Well Ford didn't help but they still could have gone ahead because the first section from DM was still going to be a approx. 1.5 km subway. If Toronto hadn't battled amongst itself it would have already been built.

The feds want shovels in the ground well before the next election and not just finally getting a report done in 4 years.

No matter what Toronto does, it better not be done on Toronto time or they may find themselves not getting a cent or going to other non-priority projects just to get any funding at all.

 

[Memph]

Here's a map showing roughly how the transit sheds compare. This shows which transit route is fastest for getting to Yonge and Bloor from a few parts of the city. If taking that transit route still involves taking a feeder bus, it still counts as part of the transit shed.

http://swontariourbanist.blogspot.ca/2015/12/transit-for-scarborough.html

Red is Sheppard East Subway's transit shed, it's pretty small.

Black is the Scarborough RT's transit shed, it's even smaller.

Light blue is the Bloor Danforth Subway's transit shed, including only the portions within Scarborough. As you can see, much bigger.

Areas around Finch and Steeles east of Yonge feed into the Yonge Subway directly, in part thanks to the 199 Rocket. Midtown and North York south of the 401 of course feed into the Yonge Subway. Much of York Region, Durham and outermost areas of E/NE Scarborough have shorter travel times to Yonge & Bloor using GO.

SW Scarborough would be relatively unaffected by an extension, but most of Central Scarborough would be, and North Scarborough would likely switch from the Yonge Subway's transit shed to that of the Scarborough Subway.

 

[dowlingm]

I didn't think it was possible to run Crosstown through Kennedy station as the use of red for the two lines east of there implies? My recollection is that Scarborough-Malvern came in to a different platform.

 

[BurlOak]

"I didn't think they planned to run Crosstown through Kennedy station as the use of red for the two lines east of there implies?"

I corrected that for you.

They figured that Scarborough residents would have no problem with the transfer.

Boy, were they wrong.

 

[dowlingm]

"I didn't think they planned to run Crosstown through Kennedy station as the use of red for the two lines east of there implies?"

I corrected that for you.

They figured that Scarborough residents would have no problem with the transfer.

Boy, were they wrong.

I was talking about the platform configuration and the structure of the station. But whatever.