Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[CDL.TO]

Seeing that the Sheppard LRT is dead (at least for the time being), why aren't we rethinking the "need" to go all the way to Sheppard?

Scarborough Centre is already the hub. It already has a TTC and regional bus terminal. It's the Urban Growth Centre and a subcentre in the City's growth plans too. Like it or not, Scarborough Centre is a major destination which generates thousands of trips each day, McCowan and Sheppard is not.

Notwithstanding the wisdom of this subway extension in general, it's time to reconsider taking it all the way to Sheppard.

 

[wopchop]

Seeing that the Sheppard LRT is dead (at least for the time being), why aren't we rethinking the "need" to go all the way to Sheppard.

Scarborough Centre is already the hub. It already has a TTC and regional bus terminal. It's the Urban Growth Centre and subcentre in the City's growth plans too. Like it or not, Scarborough Centre is a major destination which generates thousands of trips each day, McCowan and Sheppard is not.

Notwithstanding the wisdom of this subway extension in general, it's time to reconsider taking it all the way to Sheppard.

Agreed. You save 2.5 km of track @ $180million/km and a $200million station cost. Net savings = $560million 2015 dollars. That could almost buy a LRT from STC to Malvern.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto Councillors are reconsidering their support for the Scarborough Subway, now that SmartTrack is in play: http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...-in-scarborough-subway-costs-says-councillor/

“Council approved a certain alignment with a fixed cost,” said Davis. “Something is going to have to give.”

“When City Council made its decision around the subway, the Smart Track idea was not in play,” said St. Paul Councillor Joe Mihevc.

“I think that that changes the math here quite dramatically. In a world of unlimited dollars you do everything, but in a world of limited dollars you have to make choices — to be wise and prudent. It just makes less and less sense. That’s the reality.”

Mihevc said he supported the original $3.56 billion plan but would have difficulty supporting an expanded plan when it comes to council along with Smart Track in October and November.

The SSE was approved by a margin of two votes in 2013. We've since had more than two councillors indicting that they might now oppose SSE.

 

[Duck]

Has anyone ridden it lately? How's it doing?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Seeing that the Sheppard LRT is dead (at least for the time being), why aren't we rethinking the "need" to go all the way to Sheppard?

Scarborough Centre is already the hub. It already has a TTC and regional bus terminal. It's the Urban Growth Centre and a subcentre in the City's growth plans too. Like it or not, Scarborough Centre is a major destination which generates thousands of trips each day, McCowan and Sheppard is not.

Notwithstanding the wisdom of this subway extension in general, it's time to reconsider taking it all the way to Sheppard.

Agreed. You save 2.5 km of track @ $180million/km and a $200million station cost. Net savings = $560million 2015 dollars. That could almost buy a LRT from STC to Malvern.

A Bloor Danforth extension to STC would cost only 1.9 billion or something like that. The current incarnation only cost 3.5 billion or whatever because its going to Sheppard and McCowan. Maybe they should cut the Sheppard and Mccowan stop from the plan.

 

[wopchop]

A Bloor Danforth extension to STC would cost only 1.9 billion or something like that. The current incarnation only cost 3.5 billion or whatever because its going to Sheppard and McCowan. Maybe they should cut the Sheppard and Mccowan stop from the plan.

From Steve Munro's site;

The estimated unit costs for construction are $180m/km plus about $200m/station. These are 2015 dollars and are subject to inflation.

Station cost estimates for the original scheme vary considerably:

Lawrence at $160m. This is a line station that would have no provision for parking. No turnback crossover structure would be provided.
STC at $200m. This station would include parking and a crossover.
Sheppard at $500m. This station would not be just a terminal, but would have tail tracks and storage tracks to provide an overnight home for the expanded fleet. Note that this cost will apply to whatever station becomes the terminal because the storage facility has to go somewhere.

So if you cut McCowan&Sheppard, STC becomes the new terminal and is now $500m. Hence $200m station cost savings. It is also approximately 2.0-2.5km up McCowan from STC to McCowan&Sheppard, so approximately $360m in savings there.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Bellamy idea is awful but what else are we going to do - this was voted on.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

From Steve Munro's site;


So if you cut McCowan&Sheppard, STC becomes the new terminal and is now $500m. Hence $200m station cost savings. It is also approximately 2.0-2.5km up McCowan from STC to McCowan&Sheppard, so approximately $360m in savings there.

Thanks for the info. Why not bring the Glen Murray idea up again and use the STC corridor rather then McCowan. I realize it would induce the idea of the Sheppard East subway, but why pay 3 + billion when you don't have to imo.

 

[CDL.TO]

Thanks for the info. Why not bring the Glen Murray idea up again and use the STC corridor rather then McCowan. I realize it would induce the idea of the Sheppard East subway, but why pay 3 + billion when you don't have to imo.

I agree with that, but people bring up the fact that this would mean no rapid transit to STC for a few years. But if it saves $1-2 billion, there's a hell of a lot of mitigation you can do for that much money.

Frankly, any plan to build a 6km tunnel through an area of bungalows and ranch homes is pretty nuts when a surface alignment alternative is available.

 

[wopchop]

Thanks for the info. Why not bring the Glen Murray idea up again and use the STC corridor rather then McCowan. I realize it would induce the idea of the Sheppard East subway, but why pay 3 + billion when you don't have to imo.

I'm not exactly an expert or know for sure, but there are a fews issues that I can see them wanting to avoid as these introduce new costs and possibly more unknown costs;

1) Scarborough RT shutdown & associated temporary busing costs
2) Potential corridor constraints due to sharing space with GO RER / SmartTrack
3) More complicated construction staging due to Stouffville Corridor Expansion by GO Transit
4) Modifications to Kennedy station

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I agree with that, but people bring up the fact that this would mean no rapid transit to STC for a few years. But if it saves $1-2 billion, there's a hell of a lot of mitigation you can do for that much money.

Frankly, any plan to build a 6km tunnel through an area of bungalows and ranch homes is pretty nuts when a surface alignment alternative is available.

Agreed so much. Plus this would be sellable to the rest of the city which people underrated, because the rest of Toronto is inline with the forum on this despite what some people think. You can put that money to the SRT or extend Eglinton even.

I'm not exactly an expert or know for sure, but there are a fews issues that I can see them wanting to avoid and these introduce new costs and possibly more unknown costs;

1) Scarborough RT shutdown & associated temporary busing costs
2) Potential corridor constraints due to sharing space with GO RER / SmartTrack
3) More complicated construction staging due to Stouffville Corridor Expansion by GO Transit
4) Modifications to Kennedy station

Of course. But that is what they chose. It's become increasingly clear that McCowan is the most simple but most untenable route due to smart. This also runs awful smart track but it costs less. Bellamy has even less density then McCowan.

 

[GenerationW]

Okay? He can try to politically motivate councillors to do things, but like I said before, he cannot allow or disallow Council from doing anything.

He can not bring the idea of killing the subway to council for a vote. And he won't.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

He can not bring the idea of killing the subway to council for a vote. And he won't.

Councillors can bring forward their own motions; they don't need to go though the mayor. Whether or not Tory proposes the motion is irrelevant.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

He can not bring the idea of killing the subway to council for a vote. And he won't.

Councillors can bring forward their own motions; they don't need to go though the mayor. Whether or not Tory proposes the motion is irrelevant.

And if the province bails (they have money problems, remember) what happens then?

 

[crs1026]

Perhaps with SmartTrack, it could have no stations between Agincourt and Kennedy like it is now and people will have to take the SSE in between.

I like a variant of this option.

Extend the Sheppard subway east to Agincourt GO, then south to STC, then south to Kennedy. (Any routing you like, although I like McCowan)

Build GO RER, electrified, two tracks, serving the outer end of the GO line and stopping only at the existing GO stops. Enhance the frequency from Kennedy south/west to Union. The Kennedy stop provides a relief line option that syphons off downtown-destined subway traffic, giving some small relief to the eventual need for a relief line.

Eventually extend the Sheppard line west to the Spadina line, making the Bloor line a loop that turns north at Kennedy and comes back to the Spadina line at Sheppard West.

Build LRT east/north from STC on whatever routing you like, and east on Eglinton all the way to Eglinton GO.

Is it the cheapest option? Probably not. Does it give Scarboro a Subway? Yes. Does it resolve the ST/SSE overlap? Yes. Does it fulfil the original ST goal, ie deferring or removing need for a Relief Line subway? Well, for enough years that we will all be old anyways. Does it resolve Sheppard? Yes. Does it have a role for Smarttrack? Yes, from Kennedy south....which is all we need assuming the subway is a non-negotiable. Does it give GO-RER a useful role? Yes. Does it bring LRT to the further reaches of Scarboro? Yes.

It's likely a fantasy line, but just throwing it out there.

- Paul