Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

3 minutes to change at Bloor-Yonge during rush hour? Have you actually tried doing this? Usually the line of people on the Yonge Line southbound platform is 6 deep, and you have to wait a couple of trains before you can actually get on a southbound train. I'd say the transfer times are pretty similar between Bloor-Yonge and Union.

I do occasionally. Sometimes I've had to wait for a train or two. Most days it's very busy, but I get the first southbound train on the Bloor platform. Though given the current timelines, the DRL will be opening about the same time as the Danforth extension, so should be less of a factor by then.

 

[BurlOak]

I do occasionally. Sometimes I've had to wait for a train or two. Most days it's very busy, but I get the first southbound train on the Bloor platform. Though given the current timelines, the DRL will be opening about the same time as the Danforth extension, so should be less of a factor by then.

Your forgetting that the TTC study on the DRL found that there would be more transfers at Y-B in 2031 then there are now.

 

[nfitz]

Your forgetting that the TTC study on the DRL found that there would be more transfers at Y-B in 2031 then there are now.

Which study was that? The Metrolinx one found there'd be less transfers that than there is now. True or not, it doesn't really impact those coming in from Kennedy. Like me, they'd be changing for the new DRL at Pape or Donlands , as it would be faster to Queen than either changing at BD, or taking the GO to Union.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Scarborough voters still split on subway:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/10/the_pulse_scarborough_voters_still_split_on_subway.html

 

[ehlow]

Scarborough voters still split on subway:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/10/the_pulse_scarborough_voters_still_split_on_subway.html

There seems to be a new misinformation meme going around Scarborough where people believe that the current RT is the same technology as LRT, and when the RT has problems with weather or any other problems, it's counted as a weakness of LRT.

 

[kEiThZ]

There seems to be a new misinformation meme going around Scarborough where people believe that the current RT is the same technology as LRT, and when the RT has problems with weather or any other problems, it's counted as a weakness of LRT.

No. It's just that people get suspicious after they've been given crap service for a while. LRT would have been an easier sell if the RT actually had been maintained and operated reliably. But it hasn't. And after getting the RT instead of a subway extension to begin with, you can bet that many residents with long memories are "once bitten, twice shy."

My issue with the LRT is that really doesn't do much for anybody except Centennial College students. Even most of Malvern will still be getting on a bus to get on the LRT since it ends at Sheppard. At that point, why bother? The Sheppard LRT will do just fine instead.


More broadly of course, what areas like Scarborough need is full-day, two GO service, and full service and fare integration between TTC and GO. That would cut commute times by 40%. The LRT? By 10-15 minutes for the average rider. But regional thinking doesn't exist in the GTA. So you get GO service from the 905 after parking your car in a big lot. And if you're a 416 resident, you get to ride a bus that averages 15 km/h to a subway that stops every 800m.

Scarborough voters still split on subway:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/10/the_pulse_scarborough_voters_still_split_on_subway.html

Umm. No. The only people who don't think the subway is important are those who live near one today. Vic Park and Eglinton? Of course, they don't think the subway is important....

 

[ehlow]

No. It's just that people get suspicious after they've been given crap service for a while. LRT would have been an easier sell if the RT actually had been maintained and operated reliably. But it hasn't. And after getting the RT instead of a subway extension to begin with, you can bet that many residents with long memories are "once bitten, twice shy."

My issue with the LRT is that really doesn't do much for anybody except Centennial College students. Even most of Malvern will still be getting on a bus to get on the LRT since it ends at Sheppard. At that point, why bother? The Sheppard LRT will do just fine instead.


More broadly of course, what areas like Scarborough need is full-day, two GO service, and full service and fare integration between TTC and GO. That would cut commute times by 40%. The LRT? By 10-15 minutes for the average rider. But regional thinking doesn't exist in the GTA. So you get GO service from the 905 after parking your car in a big lot. And if you're a 416 resident, you get to ride a bus that averages 15 km/h to a subway that stops every 800m.




Umm. No. The only people who don't think the subway is important are those who live near one today. Vic Park and Eglinton? Of course, they don't think the subway is important....

There are people who actually believe that Skytrain RT technology is the same as LRT technology these days, which is factually incorrect. For example when the SRT shut down recently, people said "that's why I don't support LRT, they can't handle the weather". People also refer to the current SRT as "LRT". It seems like a new wide-spread phenomenon to me.

There are real, good arguments to be made for the Danforth subway extension without resorting to misinformation.

 

[Voltz]

No. It's just that people get suspicious after they've been given crap service for a while. LRT would have been an easier sell if the RT actually had been maintained and operated reliably. But it hasn't. And after getting the RT instead of a subway extension to begin with, you can bet that many residents with long memories are "once bitten, twice shy."

My issue with the LRT is that really doesn't do much for anybody except Centennial College students. Even most of Malvern will still be getting on a bus to get on the LRT since it ends at Sheppard. At that point, why bother? The Sheppard LRT will do just fine instead.


More broadly of course, what areas like Scarborough need is full-day, two GO service, and full service and fare integration between TTC and GO. That would cut commute times by 40%. The LRT? By 10-15 minutes for the average rider. But regional thinking doesn't exist in the GTA. So you get GO service from the 905 after parking your car in a big lot. And if you're a 416 resident, you get to ride a bus that averages 15 km/h to a subway that stops every 800m.




Umm. No. The only people who don't think the subway is important are those who live near one today. Vic Park and Eglinton? Of course, they don't think the subway is important....

There are a staggering number of people who think we already have an LRT and it doesn't work, referring to the SRT line, and it gets repeated in the media often.

I of course agree that GO train improvements would do far more for transit in Scarborough than what is currently planned, but the SRT needs replacement anyway, so something needs to be built there, but even just the $1.5 Billion extra that the Subway will cost would be far more effective if it were spent on GO improvements in Scarborough. So why not stick with the LRT and do that?

 

[Rainforest]

I of course agree that GO train improvements would do far more for transit in Scarborough than what is currently planned, but the SRT needs replacement anyway, so something needs to be built there, but even just the $1.5 Billion extra that the Subway will cost would be far more effective if it were spent on GO improvements in Scarborough. So why not stick with the LRT and do that?

It is not so straightforward. The #1 obstacle to GO enhancements is the Union Station capacity. Resolving that bottleneck will probably cost much more than $1.5 Billion; on the other hand, benefits will not be limited to Scarborough but will be felt across the whole city.

So, yes if there was a comprehensive and funded plan to convert GO to a meaningful intra-city service, then the $1.5 Billion would be much better spent as a part of GO funding rather than to extend the Danforth subway.

But in the absence of specific plan and adequate funding, Scarberians do not get much in return if they agree to cancel the subway extension and go back to the SLRT plan. Federal money will likely be taken back, and the city will either cancel the property tax hike, or use the funds for general repairs.

 

[rbt]

It is not so straightforward. The #1 obstacle to GO enhancements is the Union Station capacity. Resolving that bottleneck will probably cost much more than $1.5 Billion; on the other hand, benefits will not be limited to Scarborough but will be felt across the whole city.

$1.5B would buy electrification of a short segment (Agincourt to Union), a small fleet of single deck cars (similar interior to a Toronto Rocket), 3km of tunnel (duck under at Cherry Street) and a station in downtown Toronto at King & Yonge (avoids Union congestion).

The above capital expenditures assume GO will finish the track improvements they've committed to doing.

Agincourt to King & Yonge in ~30 minutes, trains every 10 minutes (all day, better during peak periods) potentially using the standard TTC fare with stops at Kennedy, and optionally Scarborough, and Danforth GO stations.

Fare would be subsidized by the gap between future subway maintenance capital and the cost to maintain the surface route. Surface transit is 5% to 10% of the ongoing maintenance cost. This gap is about $50M per year in 2040 (TTC currently spends $7M/km/year for underground metro maintenance for locations older than 15 years).

 

[Rainforest]

$1.5B would buy electrification of a short segment (Agincourt to Union), a small fleet of single deck cars (similar to a Toronto Rocket with Pantographs instead of 3rd rail), 3km of tunnel (duck under at Cherry Street) and a station in downtown Toronto at King & Yonge (avoids Union congestion).

The above capital expenditures assume GO will finish the track improvements they've committed to doing.

Agincourt to King & Yonge in ~25 minutes, trains every 10 minutes (all day, better during peak periods) potentially using the standard TTC fare with stops at Kennedy, Scarborough, and Danforth GO stations.

Fare would be subsidized by the gap between future subway maintenance capital and the cost to maintain the surface route. Surface transit is 5% to 10% of the ongoing maintenance cost.

That will be very nice if it works.

But then I am surprised that nobody with any political clout proposed this option so far.

Also, not sure about Agincourt, I thought that space in the Uxbridge sub corridor is too tight for 2 tracks north of Hwy 401.

 

[BurlOak]

There are people who actually believe that Skytrain RT technology is the same as LRT technology these days, which is factually incorrect. For example when the SRT shut down recently, people said "that's why I don't support LRT, they can't handle the weather". People also refer to the current SRT as "LRT". It seems like a new wide-spread phenomenon to me.

There are also people who think the SRT, with its prototype vehicles, is the same technology as is used in Vancouver.

An i-phone 5 is better than an i-phone 1, so why can't they believe that the Mark II is better than Mark I.

 

[nfitz]

There are also people who think the SRT, with its prototype vehicles, is the same technology as is used in Vancouver.

An i-phone 5 is better than an i-phone 1, so why can't they believe that the Mark II is better than Mark I.

Vancouver still uses Mark Is. They are refurbishing them right now. When Vancouver has to shut down there line because of snow, both the Mark I and Mark II units are stopped.

I still think that given we've got (at least) 10 years more of operation of the existing SRT, that they should go and pay through the nose for 3-4 of those Vancouver train sets, so they can increase capacity for the next decade.

 

[innsertnamehere]

not that simple and you know it.

 

[rbt]

That will be very nice if it works.

But then I am surprised that nobody with any political clout proposed this option so far.

It's essentially the I-Metro-E proposal except I tossed in a short downtown tunnel segment to avoid Union and padded the travel time by 5 to 10 minutes as I consider their time estimates to be optimistic. Stintz also mused about doing something with this line in order to defer construction of a DRL.

The terms of the Scarborough subway EA line may be required to evaluate this type of option; which ought to be interesting.

It's possible that $1.2B would be better spent on Union itself than trying to avoid it. Metrolinx mused about a LakeShore tunnel under union, perhaps this could build out the eastern half ($1B) of the tunnel with the benefit that we can run double-decker trains like RER-A or Sydney Greenline.

Also, not sure about Agincourt, I thought that space in the Uxbridge sub corridor is too tight for 2 tracks north of Hwy 401.

The Stouffville EA estimated 60 trains per weekday south of Unionville. I assumed they would need to double track that entire section as a result.

Edit: Yes, it is to become double-track: http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/improve/Stouffville_Rail_Expansion_PIC_2_EN.pdf


There are a handful of things I didn't include like the yard or maintenance facilities. I've made the assumption the spring budget will go through and we can piggy back on the promise to electrify UPX.