Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[MrGoose]

Yeah that never happens. Why would they even consider building bad LRT's?!

Ever?

Other major cities are not using trams as lines in the urban core. Your first link is for a city of population 500k

Your second link contains two tram lines. One in Guangzhou's suburbs, Huangpu Tram, the thin red line in the top right corner of the image is roughly 20-25km from Guangzhou's city center, an equivalent transit line would be a LRT along Major Mackenzie or Erin Mills.

The second line mentioned is the Yizhuang Tram in Beijing. That is also way out in the suburbs, nowhere near the city center. It's the thinner red line, hiding in the bottom right quadrant of the image below.

Additionally, talking about trams in the UK and France, those cities do not use trams as key backbones of their public transit systems. London has trams, the Croydon trams, but they are suburban.

Paris also has trams, but its not running those trams under the Champes Elysee. They're all peripheral lines.

This is objectively false. London has the Overground - a high speed LRT - and it's popular, as an example.

LRT was bad in the political context it was used for in Toronto, but the technology itself is fine.

Again, if Crosstown was HRT, there would have been no debate and both Scarborough LRTs would have been in operation for 5 plus years now.

And it's not as if HRT doesn't have it's issues as well.

Calling the Overground an LRT is doing a disservice to the Overground. The trainsets they use are high-floor, full width and run completely grade separated. These are mainline passenger rail trains, with some of the same ones (the Bombardier Aventras) being run on Crossrail.

These are not "light rail"

 

[MrGoose]

The crosstown is fine as suburban transit. It would have been great running along Hwy 7 or Erin Mills. But for people who want to get across Toronto, it completely fails. Too many stops, and it runs too slowly.

Its a complete waste of money to have the at grade section if that section were elevated or buried underground and the line had half as many stops then it would have been an amazing subway line and would've cost roughly the same amount.

At this rate, we'll need a Lawrence crosstown line in 20 yrs. Hopefully the powers that be dont screw that one up too.

 

[syn]

Other major cities are not using trams as lines in the urban core. Your first link is for a city of population 500k

Your second link contains two tram lines. One in Guangzhou's suburbs, Huangpu Tram, the thin red line in the top right corner of the image is roughly 20-25km from Guangzhou's city center, an equivalent transit line would be a LRT along Major Mackenzie or Erin Mills.
View attachment 363631

The second line mentioned is the Yizhuang Tram in Beijing. That is also way out in the suburbs, nowhere near the city center. It's the thinner red line, hiding in the bottom right quadrant of the image below.

Additionally, talking about trams in the UK and France, those cities do not use trams as key backbones of their public transit systems. London has trams, the Croydon trams, but they are suburban.

Paris also has trams, but its not running those trams under the Champes Elysee. They're all peripheral lines.

Calling the Overground an LRT is doing a disservice to the Overground. The trainsets they use are high-floor, full width and run completely grade separated. These are mainline passenger rail trains, with some of the same ones (the Bombardier Aventras) being run on Crossrail.

These are not "light rail"

Eglinton & Victoria Park is not the urban core.

 

[MrGoose]

Eglinton & Victoria Park is not the urban core.

The Golden Mile developments are going to make it as dense as the urban core. Even then, the Eglinton LRT is running through Yonge & Eglinton.

Even if all of Eglinton was suburban in nature, it will densify over the coming decades and we've completely underbuilt it for future demand.

And this line does nothing to provide an alternative to the Bloor Danforth Line, people aren't going to use it to get across town or provide a convenient way to get to the airport.

As long as public transit is slower than driving, people will choose to drive. Not grade separating the line, ensures that the line will get snarled by automotive traffic. Whereas if the line were grade separated in any way, it could run free of interference.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And this line does nothing to provide an alternative to the Bloor Danforth Line, people aren't going to use it to get across town or provide a convenient way to get to the airport.

As long as public transit is slower than driving, people will choose to drive. Not grade separating the line, ensures that the line will get snarled by automotive traffic. Whereas if the line were grade separated in any way, it could run free of interference.

Most people aren't going to use it - just like they don't use it generally with BD - to get across town. Most of the ridership is probably going to be local or feeding into N/S routes. You'd need something more akin to GO trains - higher max speed, fewer stops - for it to be truly competitive to driving. There is also the diffuse nature of destinations in suburban areas (/last mile problem) - a few minutes extra - however undesirable - on this line is probably less of a deal killer than frequency/trip length issues at the destination end of things.

AoD

 

[syn]

The Golden Mile developments are going to make it as dense as the urban core. Even then, the Eglinton LRT is running through Yonge & Eglinton.

Even if all of Eglinton was suburban in nature, it will densify over the coming decades and we've completely underbuilt it for future demand.

And this line does nothing to provide an alternative to the Bloor Danforth Line, people aren't going to use it to get across town or provide a convenient way to get to the airport.

As long as public transit is slower than driving, people will choose to drive. Not grade separating the line, ensures that the line will get snarled by automotive traffic. Whereas if the line were grade separated in any way, it could run free of interference.

The Golden Mile developments will not make it as dense as the urban core.

This line is more than able to handle density increases along this corridor well past our lifetimes - especially with other upcoming lines and expansions. I think people are drastically underestimating how much capacity an LRT can handle, while overestimating just how dense these areas actually are or will be.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Golden Mile developments are going to make it as dense as the urban core. Even then, the Eglinton LRT is running through Yonge & Eglinton.

Even if all of Eglinton was suburban in nature, it will densify over the coming decades and we've completely underbuilt it for future demand.

And this line does nothing to provide an alternative to the Bloor Danforth Line, people aren't going to use it to get across town or provide a convenient way to get to the airport.

As long as public transit is slower than driving, people will choose to drive. Not grade separating the line, ensures that the line will get snarled by automotive traffic. Whereas if the line were grade separated in any way, it could run free of interference.

LRT and HRT is simply capacity and vehicles. If it was all underground, same issues would arise. We need grade separation, and this should have been a full subway, agreed. We'll see what happens but something tells me we'll be discussing upgrades 15 years from now...

Edit: Sorry, didn't realize this was the Scarborough Subway thread. In that context, what if the SRT had been connected like proposed. We'll never know. We have what we have for both projects.

 

[Rainforest]

And this line does nothing to provide an alternative to the Bloor Danforth Line, people aren't going to use it to get across town or provide a convenient way to get to the airport.

That depends on the origin and destination. The Bloor Danforth Line by itself is a lousy crosstown option, having a 700-800 m station spacing from Vic Park all the way to Jane.

If you want to get from Kennedy Stn to Kipling & Eglinton, then taking ECLRT will be slightly faster than taking the BD line and then the Kipling bus. If your destination is on Kipling half-way between Bloor and Eglinton, then the trip using BD will be a bit faster, but not by much.

 

[H4F33Z]

The GO Midtown Line will be very important in providing an actual fast connection across town. That was never the point of Line 5 Eglinton.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The GO Midtown Line will be very important in providing an actual fast connection across town. That was never the point of Line 5 Eglinton.

Has Metrolinx actually said anything about any plans for it or are you just basing this off of a video from a transit enthusit who from time to time makes videos they think should be done.

 

[Steve X]

A Midtown Line would require ML to make major investments to a CPR corridor that never had GO service. There would be a million hurdles that I don't think ML would want to pursue. Would CPR even let ML run trains to disrupt their freight service? ML would probably need to build their own tracks in the corridor and that itself would be very expensive after CPR allows it. The line would have no links to any existing GO lines in the east making it a logistical nightmare for movements in case of a blockage. Would the ridership be there for a non-downtown line? I don't even see how they would consider this in the next decade.

 

[DirectionNorth]

The GO Midtown Line will be very important in providing an actual fast connection across town. That was never the point of Line 5 Eglinton.

I doubt it; it may have been included in some map by Metrolinx, but being in a long-term plan isn't exactly a guarantee of construction in this city ...

We may see a Midtown line in the future, but I don't think it will be seriously considered for another 50 years.

 

[kamira51]

A Midtown Line would require ML to make major investments to a CPR corridor that never had GO service. There would be a million hurdles that I don't think ML would want to pursue. Would CPR even let ML run trains to disrupt their freight service? ML would probably need to build their own tracks in the corridor and that itself would be very expensive after CPR allows it. The line would have no links to any existing GO lines in the east making it a logistical nightmare for movements in case of a blockage. Would the ridership be there for a non-downtown line? I don't even see how they would consider this in the next decade.

Is government intervention a possibility?

 

[DirectionNorth]

Is government intervention a possibility?

Yes, but the Union corridor would need to be severely overcrowded first, which with so many tracks and platforms, isn't going to happen in a century.

Or the gov't really wants that corridor, but there's no reason for them to want it.

 

[Nate_theUrbanist]

If we're lucky, we'll get a few peak-period trains 20 years from now. The Midtown line is a pipe dream.

We already have well-utilized GO bus routes along Hwys 401 and 407. A mix of fare integration, improved station infrastructure, tighter headways and HOV/Bus lanes on these highways could provide sufficient service within a more realistic timeline.