Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

The Scarborough RT was to be replaced with a LRT similiar to this...

I'm not sure about that. The Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs are huge compared to the Bombardier Flexity Freedom. And the SRT stations are nowhere near as nice as what has been built in Ottawa.

Not to mention the biggest issue in Scarborough remains the transfer at Kennedy. If you stay on the Eglinton Line, you're not getting a fully segregated, exclusive ROW like the Confederation Line. You're going to have at least part of your ride on Eglinton Avenue with your LRV stopping at lights and risking a stalled car or accident impeding its operation.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I thought the O-Train goes directly downtown. That is nothing like the Transfer LRT place.
Actually, the O-Train plan is closer to the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown which both the Liberals and Ford supported (until the Liberals realized they could sabotage Fords leadership and killed their own plan at a cost of over $1B).

Wasn't Scarborough it's own "city", with it's own "downtown"?

 

[Steve X]

I'm not sure about that. The Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs are huge compared to the Bombardier Flexity Freedom. And the SRT stations are nowhere near as nice as what has been built in Ottawa.

Not to mention the biggest issue in Scarborough remains the transfer at Kennedy. If you stay on the Eglinton Line, you're not getting a fully segregated, exclusive ROW like the Confederation Line. You're going to have at least part of your ride on Eglinton Avenue with your LRV stopping at lights and risking a stalled car or accident impeding its operation.

So people can't walk one story up instead of 3 from the subway to the new LRT platform (if rebuilt using LRVs) but they can walk 2-3 stories from a very deep STC subway station? Of course the public doesn't know this fact yet.

The plan was to rebuild the stations to 100m (probably nicer too) and use 3 car trains which would be similar length as the Confederation Line ones. Plus the Line would be extended to serve Centennial College and Sheppard/Markham with a possible extension to Malvern Town Centre.

I think the LRT replacement is the better plan

 

[kEiThZ]

So people can't walk one story up instead of 3 from the subway to the new LRT platform (if rebuilt using LRVs) but they can walk 2-3 stories from a very deep STC subway station? Of course the public doesn't know this fact yet.

The plan was to rebuild the stations to 100m (probably nicer too) and use 3 car trains which would be similar length as the Confederation Line ones. Plus the Line would be extended to serve Centennial College and Sheppard/Markham with a possible extension to Malvern Town Centre.

I think the LRT replacement is the better plan

None of this addresses the fact that Eglinton will not be grade separated. The Confederation Line is grade separated for its entire length, for the next stage under construction and for the third stage in planning. They are literally building it grade separated right out to a field. Look up where Trim station will be.

Building 100m stations platforms is one thing. It doesn't make the station as comfortable. And it doesn't make the rolling stock 100m long. Running on the street forces compromise on the Eglinton Line.

I actually think Eglinton is fine for what it is. Closer to actual LRT than a light metro. The sticky bit is resolving the reliable commute for Scarborough with either elimination of transfer or spending the extra to make Eglinton like the Confederation Line. And both of those would cost about the same.

 

[cplchanb]

So people can't walk one story up instead of 3 from the subway to the new LRT platform (if rebuilt using LRVs) but they can walk 2-3 stories from a very deep STC subway station? Of course the public doesn't know this fact yet.

The plan was to rebuild the stations to 100m (probably nicer too) and use 3 car trains which would be similar length as the Confederation Line ones. Plus the Line would be extended to serve Centennial College and Sheppard/Markham with a possible extension to Malvern Town Centre.

I think the LRT replacement is the better plan

The best plan was seriously just to upgrade the existing line for new cars, extend the ststions it and add new stops. It was partisan politics and nimbyism that got us here in the first place. Even running mk2 cars wouldve been a massive upgrade. The problem started all the way back in the 70s when they first decided to hack job a streetcar line into a light metro for poltical votes.

 

[kEiThZ]

Ford Nation would still call the Ottawa O-Train Line a streetcar line. Remember this...

I'm not sure they would. Doesn't cross a single road at-grade. No driver is ever going to have to wait or manoeuvre around a Confederation Line train. And given the hundreds of buses being removed from the downtown core, traffic actually will improve with the Confederation Line. They are literally removing bus lanes and adding parking in the core, while also adding bike lanes.

The real difference in Ottawa has been the support of this line by suburbanites and a suburban dominated council. That's come in no small part because Ottawa has prioritized building grade separated rail to the suburbs. Ask people in Vanier or the Glebe or Beacon Hill or any other urban neighborhood how they feel about riding a bus after the largest infrastructure project in the city's history. You'll get some answers not fit for print.

 

[OneCity]

So people can't walk one story up instead of 3 from the subway to the new LRT platform (if rebuilt using LRVs) but they can walk 2-3 stories from a very deep STC subway station? Of course the public doesn't know this fact yet.

The plan was to rebuild the stations to 100m (probably nicer too) and use 3 car trains which would be similar length as the Confederation Line ones. Plus the Line would be extended to serve Centennial College and Sheppard/Markham with a possible extension to Malvern Town Centre.

I think the LRT replacement is the better plan

The only part of the Transit City LRT plan I liked was the SLRT north of the Centre as the alignment would allowed for a run thru Centennial up to Milner.

Otherwise central connectivity was still very poor and better options would have been:

1. BDL extension thru RT corridor
2. Crosstown LRT extension thru RT corridor

The current subway will vastly improve connectivity as well as provide more adequate central stop locations. These were two issues of many with the RT mistake and consistently ignored by those comparing this LRT plan to plans in other Cities.

We'll soon see how the subway stops are actually designed and how many but it should be a great improvement even with deeper stations from the Centre to Kennedy when it's finally done.

 

[kEiThZ]

There's a place where Toronto could build something like the Confederation Line: the Finch Hydro Corridor. But street running is a higher priority in Toronto for some reason.

 

[sixrings]

The only part of the Transit City LRT plan I liked was the SLRT north of the Centre as the alignment would allowed for a run thru Centennial up to Milner.

Otherwise central connectivity was still very poor and better options would have been:

1. BDL extension thru RT corridor
2. Crosstown LRT extension thru RT corridor

The current subway will vastly improve connectivity as well as provide more adequate central stop locations. These were two issues of many with the RT mistake and consistently ignored by those comparing this LRT plan to plans in other Cities.

We'll soon see how the subway stops are actually designed and how many but it should be a great improvement even with deeper stations from the Centre to Kennedy when it's finally done.

So a lrt stub from stc to Malvern. I'm sure everyone would be happy with that.

 

[OneCity]

The Scarborough RT was to be replaced with a LRT similiar to this...

...but Ford Nation wanted a subway, subway, subway. ?

Worse, we could have had it opened by now.

Continuously comparing Torontos poorly connected, poorly grade separated Transit City LRT plans to other LRT lines which are completely different in implementation and.or areas served does nothing but water down discussion of the real issues.

The design details are far more important then just stating an adequate ridership technology

...but screw the details for many outside politicians it was just LRT, LRT, LRT ?

The best plan was seriously just to upgrade the existing line for new cars, extend the ststions it and add new stops. It was partisan politics and nimbyism that got us here in the first place. Even running mk2 cars wouldve been a massive upgrade. The problem started all the way back in the 70s when they first decided to hack job a streetcar line into a light metro for poltical votes.

Interesting some try to sell their favorite old proposals as 'non-political' Do you really believe the streetcar line wasn't just as political? I get it would have been cheaper, but the fight to do things cheaper from outside politicians has also been an even bigger detriment in helping this great City move forward with high quality public transit.

 

[Leo_Chan]

There's a place where Toronto could build something like the Confederation Line: the Finch Hydro Corridor. But street running is a higher priority in Toronto.

This is a good idea as grade separating the line at roads also means that the trail can be grade separated too by sharing the bridges/tunnels as well as getting past the exiting natural barriers like streams and trees. Phase 1: Finch West to Seneca College, Phase 2: Renforth to Finch West, Phase 3: Seneca College to Malvern.

 

[sixrings]

Subways subways subways.

Continuously comparing Torontos poorly connected, poorly grade separated Transit City LRT plans to other LRT lines which are completely different in implementation and.or areas served does nothing but water down discussion of the real issues.

The designs details are far more important then just stating an adequate ridership technology

...but screw the details for many outside politicians it was just LRT, LRT, LRT ?




Interesting some try to sell their favorite old proposals as 'non-political' Do you really believe the streetcar line wasn't just as political? I get it would have been cheaper, but the fight to do things cheaper from outside politicians has also been an even bigger detriment in helping this great City move forward with high quality public transit.

Everything is political. This new subways subways subways is just as political. Don't act like you're bipartisan.

 

[BurlOak]

This is a good idea as grade separating the line at roads also means that the trail can be grade separated too by sharing the bridges/tunnels as well as getting past the exiting natural barriers like streams and trees. Phase 1: Finch West to Seneca College, Phase 2: Renforth to Finch West, Phase 3: Seneca College to Malvern.

Renforth to Finch West (well Hwy 400/Finch) passes through nothing. It should have been Weston to Humber College, elevated beside Finch, then following the hydro corridor, grade-separated, from Finch West to Seneca.

 

[robmausser]

There's a place where Toronto could build something like the Confederation Line: the Finch Hydro Corridor. But street running is a higher priority in Toronto.

Also resurrect the "Etiobicoke RT" to Renforth (Missisauga Transitway, Eglinton West LRT) from Kipling.

 

[Steve X]

LRT doesn't have to be fully grade separated to be good. I think most of us can agree that the Transit City model was a bit lacking in seperation. For the Crosstown, it would be a lot better if the built it on the south side between Brentcliffe and DM. I would also think grade separating the Victoria Park/Pharmacy section and combing it into one underground station would be much better. Other than that, it would be fine. They don't need to grade separate every intersection especially when ridership isn't going to be high through that section. It's not going to be like the Confederation Line which is the main trunk line for the entire OC Transpo network.

For Finch West, grade separation between Weston Rd and Jane would greatly improve traffic circulation. Otherwise it would have been fine. ML did the right thing by grade separating Hwy 27 intersection but cheaped out on Hwy 400.

There's a place where Toronto could build something like the Confederation Line: the Finch Hydro Corridor. But street running is a higher priority in Toronto for some reason.

Here's the question, should transit be built for the locals along Finch or as a trunk line for those in not from the area and York Region? The problem with the hydro corridor is the difficulty to access on foot. If the line is built on the hydro corridor, it would please half the people on this board who loves to see fast transit while those who actually live in the area continue to ride the 36 Finch West bus cause all the destination are on Finch itself not the corridor 500m north of Finch. 5 years after such line, we will question who's smart idea was to build such line with low ridership.

A line on the hydro corridor would work a lot better for Finch East. It would attract both riders from the 939 Finch Express, 953 Steeles East Express plus YRT riders. Destinations aren't along Finch itself. The area has a totally different transit pattern than Finch West.