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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

K I know the history pretty well so this might sound like a dumb question. But was the plan to replace Line 3 with Flexity Freedoms - i.e the SLRT that everyone knows - a Metrolinx project or a City project? If the former would the province have taken ownership of all the Line 3 assets like stations and properties? If the latter it'd be the only city project using Flexity Freedoms (which is notable for being somewhat unique).

Obviously Toronto's been planning on upgrading, extending, and beefing up SRT/Line 3 since the 90s. But under the 2007 "Transit City" banner and Prov funding/drawn-out non-funding con was the construction-ownership a provincial project or a city one? Am curious.
 
asher__jo said:
SRT is however definitely appropriate for the ridership levels in Scarborough. Really a shame it wasn't retrofitted to LRT (which at the time was approx. 1B I believe), which considering the cost and lost stations compared to Scarborough 1 stop extension is MUCH better value. Just with the Gardiner debate, I don't think it's too late to reverse a hugely wasteful idea. If the Province offers to pay for Line 2 extension fully, then go for it.
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I'm not so sure, 2 billion dollars for making the existing situation worse, or 4 billion dollars for making the existing situation no better for the majority of people and worse for a few thousand others. Pick your poison.

Retrofitting with an LFLRT is honestly super dumb: it already runs with a third rail and high floor platforms. Why change all that? Why lower platforms, add driver complexity, slow down acceleration, etc? Either replace it with a smart subway plan or with MARK III ICTS trains and make some modifications to the line. It's not that difficult.
 
The issue with conversion to Mk. III trains was the TTC internally does not want the technology. Its an orphaned system and the TTC would much prefer to have something that is compatible with other parts of the system. In this regard both the LRT and Subway would fit this requirement. Coversion to Mark III's is easily the cheapest option no doubt but it leaves the TTC with a propriatery system that exists nowehere else in Toronto and thus impacting the value of the system. Obviously the LRT would have used the same vehicles as the Crosstown and Finch West LRT thus giving the TTC options from a vehicle usage perspective; same as the Subway.
 
JSF-1 said:
The issue with conversion to Mk. III trains was the TTC internally does not want the technology. Its an orphaned system and the TTC would much prefer to have something that is compatible with other parts of the system. In this regard both the LRT and Subway would fit this requirement. Coversion to Mark III's is easily the cheapest option no doubt but it leaves the TTC with a propriatery system that exists nowehere else in Toronto and thus impacting the value of the system. Obviously the LRT would have used the same vehicles as the Crosstown and Finch West LRT thus giving the TTC options from a vehicle usage perspective; same as the Subway.
Click to expand...

But are those benefits even worth it (at least in the case of the LRT) if the entire line can't be interlined, if it will cost an extra 1.5 billion dollars, and if it may cause greater traffic problems in other areas of the system? I know a streamlined fleet is highly desirable, but at the same time, there are a lot of risks that run with it, and when none of the true benefits of having that streamlined fleet are being showcased with this line, it begs the question whether it's actually worth it or not to try and streamline.
 
Allandale25 said:
Helpful thread here and it notes the recent news (in this Globe article) the Province now wants the private sector to pay for any additional stations for a Scarborough Subway. The updated cost of the one-stop subway should be available "any day now" according to this Star reporter.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1084120672090112001
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LOL

Straight out of the Ford playbook.

We're still waiting for the completed Sheppard Line paid for entirely by the private sector.

I predict this 'privately funded' extension will have a similar fate.
 
The best case is to scrap all ideas and convert the existing line as well the extension to EMU that would run from Melvern to Union Station as a single seat ride. This meets the Smart Track goal as well getting rid of an orphaned system forced onto TTC in the 70's by Queen Park. Far better than an LRT line.

The original conversion called for the extension to be built first as an LRT, with the 2nd phase to replace the SRT in the fall of 2015 with full completion around 2018. Express buses would replace the SRT while the LRT was being built. It was decided later that the SRT LRT conversion would interline with the Crosstown LRT line.

The original conversion also call for interlining with the Sheppard LRT line as well.

Since there is only a handful systems world wide using Mark II & III, not in the best interest of TTC to be stuck with another orphaned system that can't interline with the current systems or future plans.

At some future date, the EMU line would continue east and north as require.

The biggest issue for the SRT line being converted to X is the tunnel at Ellesmere, since it was only built for Mark I cars to stop it being converted back to streetcars as originally plan in the 70's or to something else down the road. That tunnel has to be 100% rebuilt for X and deal with the GO line over it. All stations have to be modify or rebuilt to meet AODA requirement.

If the SRT is converted to LRT, it allows for branch lines to be built off it down the road.

Its a poor business case to spend $6 billion dollar for 3 stations to get to STC that will save 5 minutes at best transferring at Kennedy today. The LRT plan call for a grade station at Kennedy that would save some of the existing 5 minute transfer, as well a better connecting to the GO line. So we are forced to spend an extra $4 billion to save a few minute transferring time to tell the rest of Scarborough you don't count by building this white elephant 3 stop subway extension as well waiting 5-15 extra years to ride it compare to a faster opening date for LRT or EMU.

Have very little hope that an P3 will build this extension since the return on it for the stations are poor.
 
Congrats if somehow they can find the extra billion through the private sector. (I would be excited if they could fund this through the private sector since it would mean that surely the private sector could then pay the way for the drl) Otherwise stop delaying making things more expensive and move ahead with the one stop.
 
JSF-1 said:
The issue with conversion to Mk. III trains was the TTC internally does not want the technology. Its an orphaned system and the TTC would much prefer to have something that is compatible with other parts of the system. In this regard both the LRT and Subway would fit this requirement. Coversion to Mark III's is easily the cheapest option no doubt but it leaves the TTC with a propriatery system that exists nowehere else in Toronto and thus impacting the value of the system. Obviously the LRT would have used the same vehicles as the Crosstown and Finch West LRT thus giving the TTC options from a vehicle usage perspective; same as the Subway.
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At the time (~2006), LRT was the orphan technology.
Finch could have been Mark III - there were already some vague plans with that.
Eglinton could have been subway.
Sheppard east subway extension was planned as subway.
SRT was already planned as Mark III to be extended to Malvern.
 
My fear is that in order to get developers to sign up to build the subway, the City will have to offer them relief from other amounts they would normally pay - development charges certainly, and perhaps property tax relief going forward. In effect the City will be absorbing the cost, but in a hand-is-quicker-than-the-eye fashion. And one that downloads the end financial impact on the City, notwithstanding the premise that supposedly the Province is uploading subways and their costs.
And, I wonder how many planning and zoning requirements will be exempted....will we get some bad buildings and a lousy streetscape while the developers make out like bandits. For that matter, what if the developers challenge the building standards for the subway, claiming it is over engineered - “surely we don’t need that many fire exits” etc.
Ford is not above throwing his developer friends every advantage.

- Paul
 
Should be noted that the transport minister's comments suggests that the government expects that the private sector will pay for all of the costs associated with adding two new stations, and not just a portion thereof. This strongly suggests that the government is not willing to provide any funding whatsoever on the construction of these two new stations. They expect this to be free.

This is a horrifying proposition. The government seems to be setting themselves up to study this issue for several years, while we all know that the chances of the private sector paying for this extension are zero. Meanwhile, every day of delay increases the likelihood that the SRT will be forced to shut down, forcing Scarborough commuters on the bus for an indefinite period of time.

And even if the SRT doesn't shut down, every day of delay makes the SSE just a bit more expensive. After several years of self-imposed delays, the Province will likely be crawling back to the City to provide more money to cover the cost overruns of QP's subway extension.

Queen's Park needs to stop dicking around and get the one-stop extension built. Nobody loves this proposal, but it's surely better than nothing.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
This is a horrifying proposition. The government seems to be setting themselves up to study this issue for several years, while we all know that the chances of the private sector paying for this extension are zero. Meanwhile, every day of delay increases the likelihood that the SRT will be forced to shut down, forcing Scarborough commuters on the bus for an indefinite period of time.
...
Queen's Park needs to stop dicking around and get the one-stop extension built. Nobody loves this proposal, but it's surely better than nothing.
Click to expand...


syn said:
LOL

Straight out of the Ford playbook.

We're still waiting for the completed Sheppard Line paid for entirely by the private sector.

I predict this 'privately funded' extension will have a similar fate.
Click to expand...

Yup and and in the meantime we're 4 years after the Sheppard LRT should have been built. Whether you want to see the SSE built or cancelled, this will waste yet more time, each day a day in which the line it's replacing could have already been operational. And unless my math is wrong, construction costs do not go down over the course of time. The money and time that's been wasted on this will be the subject of books years down the road.

Tigermaster hits the nail on that. It's not that I support the one-stop extension but the idea that we are heading (or continuing to head) into a never-ending series of stops and starts and alternate ideas and "better" ideas and different funding models for something that should be up and running already is really astounding. Whatever you build, it will be more expensive and open way later than it should have. On the one hand, I think might as well "get right" after all this but on the other hand, I think that ship has sailed. It will be a jerry-rigged, hodgepodge of an idea, no matter what the final line looks like.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Yup and and in the meantime we're 4 years after the Sheppard LRT should have been built. Whether you want to see the SSE built or cancelled, this will waste yet more time, each day a day in which the line it's replacing could have already been operational. And unless my math is wrong, construction costs do not go down over the course of time. The money and time that's been wasted on this will be the subject of books years down the road.

Tigermaster hits the nail on that. It's not that I support the one-stop extension but the idea that we are heading (or continuing to head) into a never-ending series of stops and starts and alternate ideas and "better" ideas and different funding models for something that should be up and running already is really astounding. Whatever you build, it will be more expensive and open way later than it should have. On the one hand, I think might as well "get right" after all this but on the other hand, I think that ship has sailed. It will be a jerry-rigged, hodgepodge of an idea, no matter what the final line looks like.
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Exactly.

At this point Scarborough would have two excellent LRT lines running, and the Eglinton LRT would be complete in a few years.

Now we're back to the same old ideas we had with another Ford brother nearly a decade ago.

micheal_can said:
Maybe I am naïve but I will never understand why they don't just replace the cars and extend the actual line.
Click to expand...

Because the people of Scarborough can't be treated like 2nd class citizens!
 
crs1026 said:
My fear is that in order to get developers to sign up to build the subway, the City will have to offer them relief from other amounts they would normally pay - development charges certainly, and perhaps property tax relief going forward. In effect the City will be absorbing the cost, but in a hand-is-quicker-than-the-eye fashion. And one that downloads the end financial impact on the City, notwithstanding the premise that supposedly the Province is uploading subways and their costs.
And, I wonder how many planning and zoning requirements will be exempted....will we get some bad buildings and a lousy streetscape while the developers make out like bandits. For that matter, what if the developers challenge the building standards for the subway, claiming it is over engineered - “surely we don’t need that many fire exits” etc.
Ford is not above throwing his developer friends every advantage.

- Paul
Click to expand...

Good point.

With provincial authority, Ford could simply subsidize their contribution through tax dollars, while telling the taxpayers he got the private sector to fund the subway extension.

A win-win for him.
 
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