Cycling infrastructure (Separated bike lanes)

[turbanplanner]

No one uses the park as a race track. You don't understand cycling or racing if that's what you think. Some ride fast, because that is how road cyclists train. Thirty or forty kph is normal for fit roadies on long rides. But no one is racing.This type of language (race track, Tour de France wannabes, yellow jerseys, Spandex warriors) is loaded and calculated to create fear and elevate the feeling of risk, and has little to do with the reality in High Park. Have some people been startled by a fast cyclist? 100% Has anyone been hurt by one? Never, to my knowledge. I wonder, in fact how much time you spend in the park, based on biased and fact-challenged posts like this.

Sorry I'm using the colloquial definition of race track.

I think any measures need to be weighed against how much they deter active transportation. Harassing cyclists for going 25 kph in a 20 zone or rolling a stop sign doesn't make anyone materially safer, and making cycling less convenient leads to less active transportation use and associated negative health outcomes.

If you have any clocks that might actually kill you, you may want to get those looked at.

The 25 in a 20 isn't even the issue, numerous times I've either cycled or driven out of the grenadier cafe lot and despite the top of the hill having a stop sign and me (and others) having right of way people run the stop signs....

 

[Undead]

I don't know about High Park, but there are plenty of near misses along the waterfront. And I believe there was an incident in recent year near HBS where a fast cyclist collided with a pedestrian, breaking the later's nose. There's definitely a need for better courtesy toward pedestrians from the lycra crowd.

 

[afransen]

I don't know about High Park, but there are plenty of near misses along the waterfront. And I believe there was an incident in recent year near HBS where a fast cyclist collided with a pedestrian, breaking the later's nose. There's definitely a need for better courtesy toward pedestrians from the lycra crowd.

In my experience, the Lycra crowd usually rides in the vehicles lanes.

 

[evandyk]

I wonder, in fact how much time you spend in the park, based on biased and fact-challenged posts like this.

Wait until you see his posts about safety on the TTC!

 

[turbanplanner]

Wait until you see his posts about safety on the TTC!

This is the most urban Toronto take, tell nearly half of torontonians they’re wrong to feel unsafe!

‘A Toronto issue’: Ipsos poll shows some TTC riders changing habits after violent incidents | Globalnews.ca

Among several findings, the poll suggests that 44 per cent of residents here feel unsafe riding transit alone, compared to 27 per cent of riders across the country.

globalnews.ca

Remember when the ttc themselves victim blamed a woman who was pushed onto the tracks for travelling alone?

 

[crs1026]

No one uses the park as a race track. You don't understand cycling or racing if that's what you think. Some ride fast, because that is how road cyclists train. Thirty or forty kph is normal for fit roadies on long rides. But no one is racing.This type of language (race track, Tour de France wannabes, yellow jerseys, Spandex warriors) is loaded and calculated to create fear and elevate the feeling of risk, and has little to do with the reality in High Park. Have some people been startled by a fast cyclist? 100% Has anyone been hurt by one? Never, to my knowledge. I wonder, in fact how much time you spend in the park, based on biased and fact-challenged posts like this.

That may be how cyclists train, just as One hundred and twenty is how people enjoy driving in well maintained automobiles..... on the expressway......but not in school zones. The hyperbolic descriptions are not about fear, they are meant to articulate that high speed bicyclists are a small and entitled sliver of the cycling population using crowded public parks, and they believe that their extreme use of bicycles should take precedence over the much greater number of people who use the parks either on bicycles at a slower pace... or walking. Without regard for the impacts the impose on the rest of us.
Have their been near misses in High Park ? Pretty much daily. Taking action before an actual accident ocurrs seems pretty reasonable to me. And I am regularly rudely crowded by fast moving bicycles as I plod along in my tubby, low speed way on my Canadian Tire Special.
Honestly, the cycling cause is harmed when the most vocal advocates refuse to look at the cycling mode as a whole and focus only on narrow high performance aspects. We get far more gain in this city by getting a thousand less able people out of their autos and chugging along at ten km/h than by helping a smaller number of keeners train for speed.
If you want to drive your car at high speed, get off the public thoroughfares and find an off road track. Same if you wwant to cycle at speed. Leave our trail and bikepath infrastructure for the greater population.

- Paul

 

[TwinHuey]

That may be how cyclists train, just as One hundred and twenty is how people enjoy driving in well maintained automobiles..... on the expressway......but not in school zones. The hyperbolic descriptions are not about fear, they are meant to articulate that high speed bicyclists are a small and entitled sliver of the cycling population using crowded public parks, and they believe that their extreme use of bicycles should take precedence over the much greater number of people who use the parks either on bicycles at a slower pace... or walking. Without regard for the impacts the impose on the rest of us.
Have their been near misses in High Park ? Pretty much daily. Taking action before an actual accident ocurrs seems pretty reasonable to me. And I am regularly rudely crowded by fast moving bicycles as I plod along in my tubby, low speed way on my Canadian Tire Special.
Honestly, the cycling cause is harmed when the most vocal advocates refuse to look at the cycling mode as a whole and focus only on narrow high performance aspects. We get far more gain in this city by getting a thousand less able people out of their autos and chugging along at ten km/h than by helping a smaller number of keeners train for speed.
If you want to drive your car at high speed, get off the public thoroughfares and find an off road track. Same if you wwant to cycle at speed. Leave our trail and bikepath infrastructure for the greater population.

- Paul

Totally agree Paul....as an advocate for more cycle infrastructure and someone who cycled within the city over 1,000 km last year....

LEVY: Active senior struck by speeding cyclist

Andrea Laughlen’s husband was hiking through Tommy Thompson park with his brothers and niece in early September when a speeding cyclist mowed him down.

torontosun.com

Toronto police looking to identify cyclist after 86-year-old pedestrian injured

Toronto police officers say the 86-year-old woman was trying to cross Queens Quay West at Bay Street on May 14 when she was hit by an eastbound cyclist.

toronto.citynews.ca

Elderly woman dies after being struck by bike in Toronto

An 84-year-old woman has died after being hit by a bicycle in Toronto on Saturday. Paramedics rushed to the Parliament Street and Spruce Street area around 1:1

www.durhamradionews.com

 

[Admiral Beez]

If you want to drive your car at high speed, get off the public thoroughfares and find an off road track. Same if you wwant to cycle at speed. Leave our trail and bikepath infrastructure for the greater population.

The best way to deter sociopathic MAMILS is through the trail/road surface. Ditch the ashpalt and replace the road and paths with medium packed gravel. It’s better for drainage. If we’re pretty much banning cars from High Park, there’s no need for a car-focused surface. Now, we’ll still need to content with mountain bikers, but they’re less likely to silently race up behind you before shouting their obnoxious “on your left!” (aka, GTFOOMW), so it’s some progress.

That was one of the benefits of the rough, potholed condition of the Lower Don Trail - that it deterred fast road bikes. I expect we’ll have a lot of fast riders once the Lower Don Trail is completed, in 2028? This thread reminded me of…

 

[Jeff Morgan]

In my experience, the Lycra crowd usually rides in the vehicles lanes.

Absolutely. As somebody who lives on the waterfront and walks / cycles it daily I typically see the Lycra crowd using the road when the sidewalks are busy. There are too many incidents where pedestrians unknowingly walk into the bike lanes and when it is busy (like the weekends) it creates conflict / danger. Also daily I see vehicles totally block the bike lanes entering/exiting a parking lot or hotel. I think in many if not most cases it is an educational problem.

 

[turbanplanner]

Absolutely. As somebody who lives on the waterfront and walks / cycles it daily I typically see the Lycra crowd using the road when the sidewalks are busy. There are too many incidents where pedestrians unknowingly walk into the bike lanes and when it is busy (like the weekends) it creates conflict / danger. Also daily I see vehicles totally block the bike lanes entering/exiting a parking lot or hotel. I think in many if not most cases it is an educational problem.

I see them in the bike lanes fairly often

 

[UntitledCyclist]

I'll bike on a side walk before I bike on the road and I stand on that.

I think technically you bike on that.

I don't know about High Park, but there are plenty of near misses along the waterfront. And I believe there was an incident in recent year near HBS where a fast cyclist collided with a pedestrian, breaking the later's nose. There's definitely a need for better courtesy toward pedestrians from the lycra crowd.

If you broaden the search terms, obviously cyclists and pedestrians have had crashes. The MGT is not a well designed path, in that it doesn't separate cyclists from pedestrians at all -- though of course as the faster moving things, cyclists should give way to peds. No high speed cyclist does or should feel comfy riding 30+ on the MGT, during any summer daylight hours.

High Park in fact has sidewalks and many paths exclusively for people on foot – though pedestrians are welcome to stroll on the road/bike lanes, they are assuming some risk. I also wouldn't really bet that more crashes happen due to "spandex" types than any other type of cyclist. They might ride faster, but they are usually skilled riders with expensive bikes they don't want to break. I'd say ebikers who are rushing to make money for exploitative delivery companies would be a bigger factor in 2024.

Pedestrians and everyone vulnerable deserve to be and feel safe. But there is an element of fearmongering to the framing and language around the cyclists who ride in HP that is out of keeping with the actual risk and reality.

 

[UntitledCyclist]

The best way to deter sociopathic MAMILS is through the trail/road surface. Ditch the ashpalt and replace the road and paths with medium packed gravel. It’s better for drainage. If we’re pretty much banning cars from High Park, there’s no need for a car-focused surface. Now, we’ll still need to content with mountain bikers, but they’re less likely to silently race up behind you before shouting their obnoxious “on your left!” (aka, GTFOOMW), so it’s some progress.

That was one of the benefits of the rough, potholed condition of the Lower Don Trail - that it deterred fast road bikes. I expect we’ll have a lot of fast riders once the Lower Don Trail is completed, in 2028? This thread reminded me of…

Your hate for cyclists who ride road bikes is silly. They are a part of the cycling community, and while some might be dinks, they are not going anywhere. Replacing asphalt with gravel in HP or anywhere else is obviously an unserious idea.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Your hate for cyclists …

I stopped reading there. Throwing around accusations of hate will get you no where. I am an avid cyclist. There is no hate. Do you even know what hatred means, beyond a toddler exclaiming hate for broccoli?

 

[UntitledCyclist]

That may be how cyclists train, just as One hundred and twenty is how people enjoy driving in well maintained automobiles..... on the expressway......but not in school zones. The hyperbolic descriptions are not about fear, they are meant to articulate that high speed bicyclists are a small and entitled sliver of the cycling population using crowded public parks, and they believe that their extreme use of bicycles should take precedence over the much greater number of people who use the parks either on bicycles at a slower pace... or walking. Without regard for the impacts the impose on the rest of us.
Have their been near misses in High Park ? Pretty much daily. Taking action before an actual accident ocurrs seems pretty reasonable to me. And I am regularly rudely crowded by fast moving bicycles as I plod along in my tubby, low speed way on my Canadian Tire Special.
Honestly, the cycling cause is harmed when the most vocal advocates refuse to look at the cycling mode as a whole and focus only on narrow high performance aspects. We get far more gain in this city by getting a thousand less able people out of their autos and chugging along at ten km/h than by helping a smaller number of keeners train for speed.
If you want to drive your car at high speed, get off the public thoroughfares and find an off road track. Same if you wwant to cycle at speed. Leave our trail and bikepath infrastructure for the greater population.

- Paul

I am sorry you have been so badly treated by packs of roving MAMILs. It doesn't reflect my experience though. I bike in HP often and have never felt that way once. Faster riders pass me in the wide roadway. They aren't looking for a collision. I have been passed unsafely by roadies, but it's like 1/100, and usually on narrower paths like the MGT. Much more often I experience this from ebike delivery drivers, but that's another topic.

I don't think the "cycling cause" is harmed by riders who use bikes to ride fast and train for speed. They are not taking away anyone else's right or ability to use the park. Othering people with phrases like "entitled sliver" reflects bias and even hate towards people who do something differently than you or I.

Faster cyclists have been riding in and around the park for decades, and despite people loving to say "a cyclist almost ran me over" this is not borne out by actual incidents occurring. I don't want to see anyone hurt, and I'm all for more separation between bikes and pedestrians, but comparing speeding cars, which can and do kill people (and cyclists) on a regular basis, and and road bikes, which do not, is not fair or accurate.

 

[UntitledCyclist]

I stopped reading there. Throwing around accusations of hate will get you no where. I am an avid cyclist, and cycle with my family and mates on all surfaces.

"sociopathic MAMILs"