Convenience Stores and Gas Stations in Downtown that Sell Beer?

[gabe]

Handy little app they have there. Now if they could create one that shows real time hospital department closures across the province that actually migh be helpful.


They will stock what moves. They're not going to expend precious shelf space simply to add variety. A lot of smaller stores are already struggling to juggle stock within a limited space. I drink craft beer and certain single malt whiskies so oI doubt they will be getting much of my business.

Unlike the US, the stores here have to buy from the LCBO or Brewer's Retail cartels. Both have horrible selections of beer and wine. My last visit to the states i saw over 45 different kinds of craft beer for sale in the grocery store. Mostly all 6 packs. Craft beer is a huge market, we are screwed over here in Ontario.

 

[ShonTron]

I buy sherry and port regularly. Sherries can go from very dry to extremely sweet. Fino and Amontillado sherries are dry and work well in recipes that call for Shaoxing wine (which often contains gluten). And the 40-year old Sandeman tawny port we had with our (gluten-free) pumpkin pie last weekend was exceptional. And it's indeed very sweet.

I also love drinking madeira, but we don't have much variety here. Unlike port and sherry, it lasts practically forever once opened. Not that I have ever had to test this.

My spouse and I were staying in the Ballston area of Arlington Virginia in 2022 and went to a Pan-Iberian restaurant on a whim, and the place blew us away with food and service. We tried several madeiras as part of a promotion they had – a type of wine/liquor we haven’t had before – and were impressed.

It’s something that can really be savoured, but not something I’d expect to see at a convenience store.

 

[bearcat]

Handy little app they have there. Now if they could create one that shows real time hospital department closures across the province that actually migh be helpful.


They will stock what moves. They're not going to expend precious shelf space simply to add variety. A lot of smaller stores are already struggling to juggle stock within a limited space. I drink craft beer and certain single malt whiskies so oI doubt they will be getting much of my business.

The website has its flaws. Unfortunately this map shows all locations that have licenses to sell alcohol, but it doesn't actually mean the store stocks it. There are several convenience stores near me who haven't started selling yet but are on the map. There are some grocery store on there as well that stopped selling alcohol last year, but are keeping their license. Also one my favorite breweries, Black Lab, is missing.

 

[EBT]

Yesterday I went into the INS Market at 45 Carlton Street to pick up something and I noticed in the refrigerators they were selling a selection of beer. I also noticed that there were no prices shown! I asked the clerk how much was a can of Laker Ice 473 ML which is my brand of choice, and he looked it up and said $2.49. This same can of beer sells for $2.35 at the Beer Store, LCBO and Metro. Is it normal for the convenience stores to jack up the prices of beer? I realize convenience stores are not known for low prices, but alcohol is already overpriced as it is in Ontario. They should just be thankful they have been given the chance to sell beer!

On an important sidenote I had gone into this INS location (second time I ever step foot in an "INS") to buy a bag of caramelized popcorn. I had bought a bag about a month ago for $1.49. When I went in this second time there was no price listed for the bag of caramelized popcorn in fact there were NO PRICES ON ANYTHING IN THE STORE!

I asked the clerk how much the bag of popcorn was. He checked and replied "$4.51"! At that point I told him the place was a rip-off and vowed to never step foot in an "INS Market" again. I then proceeded to Loblaws across the street and bought two boxes of "Crunch N' Munch" for $1.49 a box! I never thought I would have to seek refuge from high prices by going into a Loblaws!

The morale of the story as always is BUYER BEWARE! Perhaps this post should be in the downtown supermarket thread since these INS markets have popped up everywhere and I suspect some people (who don't look at prices) are doing their regular grocery shopping there.

Coincidently prior to entering the INS Market I walked past the 7/11 location at Yonge & Carlton and it is completely boarded up. Don't know if it is for renovations or if it is gone for good. Was this a factor in INS removing the price of EVERYTHING in their store?

I would be interested in hearing if others have had similar experiences with this INS Market chain that has sprung out of nowhere in the last year or two. I was going to post a review on Google for this location but for some reason INS Market hasn't listed its store on Google. I wonder why?

 

[Northern Light]

Yesterday I went into the INS Market at 45 Carlton Street to pick up something and I noticed in the refrigerators they were selling a selection of beer. I also noticed that there were no prices shown! I asked the clerk how much was a can of Laker Ice 473 ML which is my brand of choice, and he looked it up and said $2.49. This same can of beer sells for $2.35 at the Beer Store, LCBO and Metro. Is it normal for the convenience stores to jack up the prices of beer? I realize convenience stores are not known for low prices, but alcohol is already overpriced as it is in Ontario. They should just be thankful they have been given the chance to sell beer!

On an important sidenote I had gone into this INS location (second time I ever step foot in an "INS") to buy a bag of caramelized popcorn. I had bought a bag about a month ago for $1.49. When I went in this second time there was no price listed for the bag of caramelized popcorn in fact there were NO PRICES ON ANYTHING IN THE STORE!

I asked the clerk how much the bag of popcorn was. He checked and replied "$4.51"! At that point I told him the place was a rip-off and vowed to never step foot in an "INS Market" again. I then proceeded to Loblaws across the street and bought two boxes of "Crunch N' Munch" for $1.49 a box! I never thought I would have to seek refuge from high prices by going into a Loblaws!

The morale of the story as always is BUYER BEWARE! Perhaps this post should be in the downtown supermarket thread since these INS markets have popped up everywhere and I suspect some people (who don't look at prices) are doing their regular grocery shopping there.

Coincidently prior to entering the INS Market I walked past the 7/11 location at Yonge & Carlton and it is completely boarded up. Don't know if it is for renovations or if it is gone for good. Was this a factor in INS removing the price of EVERYTHING in their store?

I would be interested in hearing if others have had similar experiences with this INS Market chain that has sprung out of nowhere in the last year or two. I was going to post a review on Google for this location but for some reason INS Market hasn't listed its store on Google. I wonder why?

May I suggest less use of 'All Caps' in future posts.

****

. Is it normal for the convenience stores to jack up the prices of beer? I realize convenience stores are not known for low prices, but alcohol is already overpriced as it is in Ontario. They should just be thankful they have been given the chance to sell beer!

There is virtually no profit at all for convenience stores or grocery stores selling alcohol.

They have to buy from the LCBO, and they get a 10% discount vs what you and I pay retail.

So, that beer that's $2.35 at LCBO costs the convenience store $2.12 a can, if purchased as singles.

They then have to cover their overhead (rent, utilities, insurance, loss provision, and staffing costs), and only then do you get any profit.

There is no way they are selling beer as cheap as LCBO.unless they are losing money on it.

A normal wholesale market (varies by product class), but in general, would sell at ~50% of retail to a retailer, who then marks it up 100% to cover their costs.)

In the case of alcohol specifically, the standard mark up in the U.S. varies between a low of 25% and a high of around 50%.

(in general, products which move at volume get lower markups)

****

If you have a complaint about the price of beer in Ontario, you might wish to take that up with the provincial government. Beer excise tax is the single largest reason for prices being comparatively high in Ontario. Additionally, the LCBO's standard mark up, for most products is 129% (which as noted above is in the range of triple industry norms elsewhere.)

That is not the fault of convenience stores.

Of course, when you lobby for lower taxes on alcohol, and lower LCBO mark-ups, do remember, that that is government revenue, and if they get less, it either means service cuts, or higher taxes on something else.

 

[afransen]

Unlike the US, the stores here have to buy from the LCBO or Brewer's Retail cartels. Both have horrible selections of beer and wine. My last visit to the states i saw over 45 different kinds of craft beer for sale in the grocery store. Mostly all 6 packs. Craft beer is a huge market, we are screwed over here in Ontario.

When I was in Texas last year, I got some beer at a Walmart. They had a grand total of 2 IPAs to choose from. Everything else was mass market lager and a couple of import options. I was shocked. I had to go to a liquorstore to find a decent selection, and even there, the selection of IPAs was smaller than you'd see in Ontario.

 

[Jonny5]

When I was in Texas last year, I got some beer at a Walmart. They had a grand total of 2 IPAs to choose from. Everything else was mass market lager and a couple of import options. I was shocked. I had to go to a liquorstore to find a decent selection, and even there, the selection of IPAs was smaller than you'd see in Ontario.

Yeah there's this mythos that in the US every store has a massive selection of unique wines and beers from all over the world that you'll never see in Ontario.

I was in California in the Bay Area earlier this year, and the grocery stores I visited basically had a similar selection to the grocery stores here: shelves lined with Yellow Tail and Coors Light. Yet I still hear all the time about how Costco in the US has a selection of wines that is unparalleled to even the Summerhill LCBO, and the finest California vintage wines which you can never find here. It didn't. They sell J Lohr, world blend plonk, and Kirkland brand wine (which actually is better than some Ontario wines).

They do have retail liquor stores with wide selections, but when you walk in you better have your credit card handy as you'll pay for it. Prices there were the same as they are here, but in USD, not CAD, so they were actually far MORE expensive.

This mythos appears to be something that was maybe true 20 years ago, but is now far out of date, but has been perpetuated without question. All the US retail grocery and box stores have gone to selling the most high demand items only/ Perhaps a sign of economic changes. They aren't selling much beyond the LCBO catalogue.

 

[gabe]

Yeah there's this mythos that in the US every store has a massive selection of unique wines and beers from all over the world that you'll never see in Ontario.

I was in California in the Bay Area earlier this year, and the grocery stores I visited basically had a similar selection to the grocery stores here: shelves lined with Yellow Tail and Coors Light. Yet I still hear all the time about how Costco in the US has a selection of wines that is unparalleled to even the Summerhill LCBO, and the finest California vintage wines which you can never find here. It didn't. They sell J Lohr, world blend plonk, and Kirkland brand wine (which actually is better than some Ontario wines).

They do have retail liquor stores with wide selections, but when you walk in you better have your credit card handy as you'll pay for it. Prices there were the same as they are here, but in USD, not CAD, so they were actually far MORE expensive.

This mythos appears to be something that was maybe true 20 years ago, but is now far out of date, but has been perpetuated without question. All the US retail grocery and box stores have gone to selling the most high demand items only/ Perhaps a sign of economic changes. They aren't selling much beyond the LCBO catalogue.

Everything in California is expensive. In NY state you can still get some cheap booze. I always grab some Courvoisier VSOP Cognac in NY state. it's $55 (77 Canadian dollars) at the LCBO the same bottle last time i bought from the LCBO was around $90. I checked now, they have jacked the price up $110!!!

Las Vegas has cheap alcohol but you sure as hell won't find it on the strip! Two tall boys of domestic crap cost me 12 dollars at a convenience store. I paid it because i didn't feel like my risking my life at midnight walking to the ghetto 7-11 off strip. To save a few bucks. The same two cans total would have been $5.90 at the LCBO. I so yeah i got ripped off.

When I was in Texas last year, I got some beer at a Walmart. They had a grand total of 2 IPAs to choose from. Everything else was mass market lager and a couple of import options. I was shocked. I had to go to a liquorstore to find a decent selection, and even there, the selection of IPAs was smaller than you'd see in Ontario.

Walmart and Target are horrible places to buy beer. I do better at grocery stores and independent beer stores. Every state is different, they got some strange liquor laws down there.

Michigan is probably the best place in the US to buy alcohol. The department store Meijer which is like Walmart. Has beer/wine and even hard liquor. They have 133 IPA's to pick from.

https://www.meijer.com/shopping/departments/beer-wine-spirits/beer.html?icid=T1%3ABWS%3AVW%3ABeer&group_id=L4-4734

​

 

[afransen]

I don't really understand the policy rationale behind the high markups on premium alcohol in Ontario. The public policy rationale of discouraging excess consumption makes sense, but that is better accomplished by taxing alcohol at the unit of alcohol level. Perhaps there is some logic to taxing concentrated alcohol like liquor at a higher rate as they are easier to binge than beer/wine/coolers. But to tax cognac higher than cheap vodka makes no sense to me.

 

[EBT]

May I suggest less use of 'All Caps' in future posts.

****



There is virtually no profit at all for convenience stores or grocery stores selling alcohol.

They have to buy from the LCBO, and they get a 10% discount vs what you and I pay retail.

So, that beer that's $2.35 at LCBO costs the convenience store $2.12 a can, if purchased as singles.

They then have to cover their overhead (rent, utilities, insurance, loss provision, and staffing costs), and only then do you get any profit.

There is no way they are selling beer as cheap as LCBO.unless they are losing money on it.

A normal wholesale market (varies by product class), but in general, would sell at ~50% of retail to a retailer, who then marks it up 100% to cover their costs.)

In the case of alcohol specifically, the standard mark up in the U.S. varies between a low of 25% and a high of around 50%.

(in general, products which move at volume get lower markups)

****

If you have a complaint about the price of beer in Ontario, you might wish to take that up with the provincial government. Beer excise tax is the single largest reason for prices being comparatively high in Ontario. Additionally, the LCBO's standard mark up, for most products is 129% (which as noted above is in the range of triple industry norms elsewhere.)

That is not the fault of convenience stores.

Of course, when you lobby for lower taxes on alcohol, and lower LCBO mark-ups, do remember, that that is government revenue, and if they get less, it either means service cuts, or higher taxes on something else.

First off, I don't understand the "all caps" comment. I made judicious use of caps. All Caps exist for a reason. To provide emphasis.

On to the main substance of your reply. If it is true that the convenience stores have to buy beer from the LCBO or the Beer Stores foreign consortium who in turn only give the convenience stores a 10% discount off of the full retail price, then the Ontario public has been sold a complete "bill of goods". When Premier Ford announced alcohol sales in convenience stores it was sold as "bringing competition to the marketplace" Remember "A buck a beer"? If the convenience stores have to buy their stock from the LCBO/Beer Store duopoly then this is just an illusion of "competition"

I don't doubt what you say is true because I note there was no resistance to the move of selling beer in convenience stores by the Beer Store consortium (the LCBO naturally would not comment publicly as it is owned by the province). It is a good arrangement for the alcohol cartel in Ontario. A way to expand their retail operations without having to spend a dollar on new retail locations. The Beer Store in particular has lately seemed intent on selling its standalone locations for condo developments so they might see Convenience stores as a more lucrative distribution channel bereft of costly union labor. Think about it! If this is what has happened, it seems like a very big story that has not been reported in our media which doesn't surprise me considering the state of our media today.

But I am still left with one question. How come Metro can sell beer at the exact same price as the LCBO and Beer Store? Typical mark ups for grocery stores are 15%? I doubt Metro is stocking its shelves with beer to sell at a 5% loss!

 

[Smoke2011]

Before the changes store like Metro had to match the prices of the LCBO and do it on a margin of 2-3%. The end of the day they wer loaing money. They treat it as a loss leader. Buy a 6 pack and hope you pick up some snacks.

Now with a 10% discount, there is more interest by corp for the depatment. With the removal off all in pricing, dont be surprised to see some increases in the new year.

 

[Northern Light]

How come Metro can sell beer at the exact same price as the LCBO and Beer Store? Typical mark ups for grocery stores are 15%? I doubt Metro is stocking its shelves with beer to sell at a 5% loss!

@Smoke2011 has the answer above.

But I would add just a couple of bits....

1) They much higher volume of sales, alcohol, for the most part, ix expected to be something you 'add to the basket' at a supermarket, the grocer's concern is the overall profit on that basket, more than the single item. For a convenience store, the same theory exists, that if you buy a six-pack, but then grab, chips and dip while you're there, they make money on the latter. But where Metro/Loblaws may count on your basket being between $50-$200 excluding booze, the convenience store will be luck to have $10, so they have less room to cover costs on 'other items'.

2) The industry expects another shoe to drop in the next 2-3 weeks. A shoe likely to give them a bit more margin, or so they hope. We will see soon enough.

 

[EBT]

@Smoke2011 has the answer above.

But I would add just a couple of bits....

1) They much higher volume of sales, alcohol, for the most part, ix expected to be something you 'add to the basket' at a supermarket, the grocer's concern is the overall profit on that basket, more than the single item. For a convenience store, the same theory exists, that if you buy a six-pack, but then grab, chips and dip while you're there, they make money on the latter. But where Metro/Loblaws may count on your basket being between $50-$200 excluding booze, the convenience store will be luck to have $10, so they have less room to cover costs on 'other items'.

2) The industry expects another shoe to drop in the next 2-3 weeks. A shoe likely to give them a bit more margin, or so they hope. We will see soon enough.

The above replies seem to confirm to me that the much vaunted "introducing competition in the sale of beer and wine" announced a few years back by Premier Ford was just an illusion. The LCBO/Beer Store booze-cartel are just using grocery and corner stores as a cheaper distribution channel for their duopoly. I don't know why there isn't just a set excise tax on alcohol and retailers should be free to source booze anywhere in the world and sell it in Ontario if they collect the set excise tax. Why can't a grocery chain be able to - for example - source beer directly from US or Mexican breweries or even Canadian independents like Laker and sell the beer in their stores after collecting the excise tax?

 

[Northern Light]

The above replies seem to confirm to me that the much vaunted "introducing competition in the sale of beer and wine" announced a few years back by Premier Ford was just an illusion. The LCBO/Beer Store booze-cartel are just using grocery and corner stores as a cheaper distribution channel for their duopoly. I don't know why there isn't just a set excise tax on alcohol and retailers should be free to source booze anywhere in the world and sell it in Ontario if they collect the set excise tax. Why can't a grocery chain be able to - for example - source beer directly from US or Mexican breweries or even Canadian independents like Laker and sell the beer in their stores after collecting the excise tax?

There already is excise tax, and a lot of it.

So the answer is that the province would face significant issues., replacing both the wholesale and retail profit of the LCBO on the books. Something in the range of 2B per year.

Their are other complications, for one, a large number unionized workers, also voters.......thousands, who would be out of work...

And today, the private sector isn't set up to replace the LCBO's distribution system. (yes, they absolutely could, it would require time.). Large grocers w/their own distribution centres would be well placed to do a lot of this; but even they face
challenges re-arranging space for hundreds of new skus in an exisitng store, both on the shelf and in the back; and having to schedule additional deliveries. For smaller chains/independents, restaurants and for alcohol producers who lack their own distribution network it would be a bit shift.

***

I expect we will get a bit closer to what you're hoping for........how much closer I'm not sure, but the moves made thus far are a logical first step in that direction (whether one wants a privatized outcome or not).

Even free-market loving Alberta, who also privatized liquor sales at the retail level, maintained a distribution monopoly.

 

[Smoke2011]

Laker/Waterloo isn't independent anymore. They got bought by Carlsberg.