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Condo market to crash in Toronto?

most Toronto condos are not built with this in mind?

Also, new immigrants = low income.. does this mean condos will become future income housing?
 
Kind of ironic: they build them; then get kicked out of canada. Nice justice eh?

Building condos or doing anything else which doesn't break the law doesn't erase the law breaking that already happened. I fail to see the irony and yes I think it is good justice that people that break the law are not rewarded for it. There are many people who attempt to enter Canada legally from countries in much worse shape than Mexico who are rejected because they don't have enough points in their evaluation while illegals from Mexico are making money here. Why should I be more sympathetic to an illegal Mexican than a person with a rejected application from Mali? There are a lot more jobs in Mexico than Mali.
 
There's nothing stopping a family wanting to live in an apartment from buying two and knocking them together.

Pre-construction that might be the case depending on the flexibility of the developer but I think most condos would disallow that kind of major construction. I know that over at Pinnacle Centre they mentioned flexibility in joining penthouse units pre-construction but I haven't heard that mentioned elsewhere. The noise that putting a hole through a concrete wall post-construction and the risk to the structural integrity of the building would probably end up with the condo board rejecting the idea.
 
I think there is a lot of evidence that the condo bubble isn't about to burst, at least not downtown. Both Shangri-la and L-Tower are selling more than half their units in preview before the sales centre is fully open. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that investors are the bulk of the buyers either. For investors the lower end bachelor and one bedroom condos would be the most rentable, not high-end condos. I think the fact buildings are sold out before construction even starts protects Toronto from bubbles somewhat. In the last bubble buildings were under construction with only a fraction of the building sold.

I also don't believe that the Toronto population is relatively static. First you have Stats Can's population growth of 21,787. In addition, youth that leave home to live in a condo cause no population change nor does a renter becoming a condo owner. If rental apartment building occupancies are any indicator, there are still a lot of apartment dwellers who could become condo owners in the near future. There seems to be less vacancies now than there was three years ago when some landlords were offering tennants finder fees.
 
Pre-construction that might be the case depending on the flexibility of the developer but I think most condos would disallow that kind of major construction. I know that over at Pinnacle Centre they mentioned flexibility in joining penthouse units pre-construction but I haven't heard that mentioned elsewhere. The noise that putting a hole through a concrete wall post-construction and the risk to the structural integrity of the building would probably end up with the condo board rejecting the idea.

I know of a few units that were combined pre-construction in the new London on the esplanade.
 
When 1 bedroom condos that are selling for today for $200K, start hitting $400K, then thats the day that I truely believe a crash could possibly hit. Today, as already mentioned, really only a slowdown or a period of stagnant sales/prices could really be realized.

Those 3 bedroom units are ahead of its time, in a decade, they will be worth gold when a lot more familys choose to live downtown (work life issues, etc.). Today, condos/apartments downtown on a mass scale are still a relatively new concept, and dominated by couples, young professionals, and singles.
 
Today, as already mentioned, really only a slowdown or a period of stagnant sales/prices could really be realized.

Heck, a 50% decrease in condo sales still leaves the Toronto hot; just not super stupid hot anymore.
 
Possibly. People buy and renovate houses to get them the way they want ever day. Why would apartments be any different?
 
Possibly. People buy and renovate houses to get them the way they want ever day. Why would apartments be any different?

It's rare that people buy two houses side by side and join them together. That said, I can't think of any legal reasons why it would be difficult to do. The board will probably insist you maintain both entrances and other common elements in their current state, otherwise it's a matter of proving it can be done safely and quietly (function of money for engineering work, labour, etc.).

City permits for joining units might get interesting. If you make the join reversible and sell both units independently I don't think they'll care too much.

Buying a pair of 2 bedroom units side by side and having the developer install a knock out wall between them (rent one and live in the other until the family grows into them both) is seen more and more often. In theory you can do a minor renovation and unload one of the units when the kids leave.
 
If I had the spare cash I'd be tempted to buy out the people on the other side of my semi. It would be easy to punch a few holes through the walls on both floors and create some interesting big rooms and two storey spaces. I've heard of such things being done.
 
Crash or no crash the significant impact of this boom is a fundamental shift in the mind-set of the regional population towards acceptance of multi-residential living. I think this is the most important issue to remember when discussing the condo market.
 
I'm with TrickyRicky. There's more going on here than the simple numbers show, because demographics and ideas about condos are changing. Before they were seen as simply a "stepping stone" for young people who couldn't yet afford houses. After 3 years in a condo downtown, you "grew up," bought a house in the burbs, and started reproducing. But now there are other factors coming into play, such as:

- Traffic is continuing to worsen in the GTA, and the idea of commuting two hours each way to work, just so you can own a patch of dead grass in the outer burbs, isn't as automatically appealing to everyone as it used to be.

- Gas prices are continuing to go up, making the suburban multi-car household where you basically need one car per each adult in the household relatively more expensive than downtown condo living, where you can more easily survive with only one car for the family, or perhaps none.

- New condos are simply much nicer than the ones they built a decade or two ago, with stainless steel, granite, and all that stuff people like. You don't necessarily have to live in a bland concrete box with laminate cupboards anymore if you don't want to (though lots of those are still around).

- Pollsters keep telling us that "the environment" is high on many Canadians priority lists now. Sure most of it is just talk and no action, but definitely there is more of a "cool" factor to living in more sustainable non-suburban areas now, where you have the option of cycling to get around, or taking transit, than there was a decade or so ago. This might influence the lifestyle decisions of some younger people coming into the market.

- There are also rumours of a growing trend of empty-nesters returning to the city, and to condo life, after their kids (finally) move out. After decades of home maintenance, an all-inclusive monthly condo fee suddenly doesn't look so bad. And someone else shovels the snow. Whether this trend is real or imagined, I don't know.

I'm interested to see how of these different factors will play out over the next few years, and how a peak in the condo market will interact with a peak in the general housing market, which I believe is also due (and is already well underway in the US).

My uneducated guess: there will be some correction, and some tougher times ahead, but it won't be a devastating crash. Lots of people want condos, lots of people who might prefer a house simply can't afford one. I can't see either of those core factors changing anytime soon.
 
i know that the markets are vey different, but there has definitely been a substantial slowing in the condo market down here in san diego. there are forests of condos that sit empty all over the downtown and midtown, with more going up all the time. prices are falling and some are being turned into apartments until that market perks up again and can be converted back into condos.
 
Puke Green: I think you have presented a very well reasoned analysis. The condo market, in the GTA at least, is strong for a number of fundamental reasons, which you have set out. Every one of your points is well taken.

The market will possibly slow down somewhat over the next 2 - 3 years, going possibly from "red hot" to just hot or simmering, if you'll pardon the expressions. This may be especially so if interest rates take a significant upward jump (unlikely, at this time). But I'm talking about only modest reductions in sales volumes, and quite likely no reductions at all in prices.

We won't see anything like the disasters they have experienced in a few American cities, or indeed like Toronto back around 1990. Condos now don't get built until they have been at least 60% sold, a mechanism which means that the pace of construction will respond pretty quickly to any slowing of market demand.
 

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