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Condo Fees vs. Home Ownership

That's the one, thanks. How many other condo towers in Toronto will be facing similar repairs? And then the floor to ceiling windows will begin to fail. http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/condos/seals.html Lemons in the sky.

I'd say an old, well maintained condo is best, with copper water pipes and traditional windows that are not wall substitutes.

It's really going to be a disaster once these condos start failing. Those who deserve blame will be nowhere to be found. "But, but Tarion...." When you dig deeper, you realize Tarion is a sham. The whole thing is a mess, really.

Thing is, this is happening everywhere, not just housing. Workmanship and quality of materials has fallen off in virtually every sector. I bought a $100 touque last year. It fell apart.
 
Thing is, this is happening everywhere, not just housing. Workmanship and quality of materials has fallen off in virtually every sector. I bought a $100 touque last year. It fell apart.
Some of the best made clothing I've found are made right here in Canada. My Tilley hat from the 1990s looks good and its replacement (thought I'd lost the first one) from the early 2000s looks brand new. I bought this winter hat a decade ago and it still looks brand new, even after many harsh days put away damp, http://www.tilley.com/us_en/tw2-classic-winter.html

I bought these motorcycle boots last year and so far they've held up wonderfully. http://www.bouletboots.com/PageAspNet/BouletBootsAspNetMain.aspx
 
Some of the best made clothing I've found are made right here in Canada. My Tilley hat from the 1990s looks good and its replacement (thought I'd lost the first one) from the early 2000s looks brand new. I bought this winter hat a decade ago and it still looks brand new, even after many harsh days put away damp, http://www.tilley.com/us_en/tw2-classic-winter.html

I bought these motorcycle boots last year and so far they've held up wonderfully. http://www.bouletboots.com/PageAspNet/BouletBootsAspNetMain.aspx

Luckily those things are still made in Canada. A lot of companies have since moved production to China and in many cases, the quality has fallen off.
 
A close friend of mine bought a newly built condo at Yonge and Eglinton, across the street from Canadian Tire head office. I think it's been perhaps five years since construction completed, or however long it would be for any warranty to have expired. He's now been told he must pay $10,000 to replace all the water pipes in his unit. The entire building is having new water pipes installed, with some of the larger units having to pay over $30,000.

That's a major difference between condo vs. home ownership. If I buy a new build single family home, it is very unlikely that you would need to replace the water pipes,.

Five years? Apparently according to this link, the new home warranty only covers the first two years for plumbing issues. However, if there was plumbing problem reported before those two years were up, it looks like lawyer time.

One Year Warranty
• Requires a home is constructed in a workman-like manner and free from defects in material;
• Protects against unauthorized substitutions
• Requires the home to be fit for habitation;
• Protects against Ontario Building Code violations; and
• Applies for one year, beginning on the home’s date of possession even if the home is sold.

Two Year Warranty

• Protects against water penetration through the basement or foundation walls;
• Protects against defects in materials that affect windows, doors and caulking and defects in work that results in water penetration
into the building envelope;
• Covers defects in work or materials in the electrical, plumbing and heating delivery and distribution systems;
• Covers defects in work or materials that result in the detachment, displacement or deterioration of exterior cladding (such as
brickwork, aluminum or vinyl siding);
• Protects against violations of the Ontario Building Code that affect health and safety; and
• Applies for two years, beginning on the home’s date of possession.

Seven Year Warranty

Your home’s seven year warranty covers major structural defects (MSD) and begins on the date you take possession of the home and ends on the day before the seventh anniversary of that date.

For example, if your home’s date of possession is October 23, 2005, the seven year MSD warranty begins on October 23, 2005 and remains in effect until and including October 22, 2012.

A major structural defect is defined in the The Ontario New Home Warranties Plan Act as:

In respect of a post June 30, 2012 home, any defect in work or materials in respect of a building, including a crack, distortion or displacement of a structural load-bearing element of the building, if it,

(i) results in failure of a structural load-bearing element of the building,

(ii) materially and adversely affects the ability of a structural load-bearing element of the building to carry, bear and resist applicable structural loads for the usual and ordinary service life of the element, or

(iii) materially and adversely affects the use of a significant portion of the building for usual and ordinary purposes of a residential dwelling and having regard to any specific use provisions set out in the purchase agreement for the home


The seven year MSD warranty includes significant damage due to soil movement*, major cracks in basement walls, collapse or serious distortion of joints or roof structure and chemical failure of materials.

In addition to the general exclusions, the seven year MSD warranty specifically excludes: dampness not arising from failure of a load-bearing portion of the building; damage to drains or services; and damage to finishes.

Common Elements

For most condominium projects, warranty coverage also includes the shared areas of the building, referred to as Common Elements.

Limitations and Exclusions

Please consult Tarion’s Construction Performance Guidelines if you are in doubt about whether an item is covered.
- See more at: http://www.tarion.com/Warranty-Prot...ven-Year-Warranties.aspx#sthash.iHIzv9gq.dpuf
 
An article a few days ago on the ever-increasing condo fees, this example specific to the Toy Factory Lofts.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015/02/13/the-real-costs-of-maintenance-fees.html

Maintenance fees take a toll on Toronto condo owners.
Monthly charges seen as growing problem for industry.

By: Susan Pigg Business Reporter, Published on Fri Feb 13 2015

Four years ago, Craig Gagliano did something virtually unheard of in Toronto’s condo industry.

The resident of the west-end Toy Factory Lofts and president of its condo board cut monthly maintenance fees for each of the building’s 213 units — by a stunning 30 per cent.

While the price of living the carefree condo life continues to climb in buildings across the GTA — often at rates well above inflation — the well-kept Toy Factory Lofts still boast some of the lowest monthly maintenance fees in the city.

They now run just 31 cents per square foot for units without parking or a locker, almost half the city-wide average of 59 cents per square foot for similar units, according to new building-by-building analysis of Toronto condos done by the innovative site Condos.ca

That adds up to about $306 per month, compared to the city-wide average of $530 per month, for a 900-square-foot unit.

The low fees amount to more than just hundreds of dollars in savings per month for owners of the sought-after historic former factory in Liberty Village. They can have a major impact on a condo’s resale price.

“Our rate of property value increase has outpaced similar buildings and I believe it’s by virtue of the attractiveness of the low maintenance fees,” says Gagliano.
Condos.ca, which has already taken a hard look at price appreciation in various buildings, is now pulling back the veil on maintenance fees with a new online feature. It will allow buyers to get a sense of maintenance fees — and how much they’ve climbed — in almost 700 buildings, as well as townhouse projects, across Toronto. What it can’t really tell you is the reasons behind the costs.

The site’s creators — condo specialist Carl Langschmidt, his data-crunching brother Ahren, and realtor-partner Andrew Harrild — are still collecting and analyzing fee details on an additional 900 projects.

“One of the first things every buyer asks about is maintenance fees. They are the thing that is hurting the condo industry the most,” says Carl Langschmidt.

“People who buy homes don’t have monthly (costs) nearly as high as what some of these condos are charging. Granted, you don’t have to shovel your driveway or take your garbage out, so there is a service component in a condo that needs to be reflected. But condo fees are largely out of whack.”

They are also confusing, seemingly uncontrollable and the second-biggest cost of condo ownership, next to a mortgage, which is why the Condos.ca team has been amassing data for well over a year now from MLS and other real estate sites.

One of their most shocking discoveries was the high costs of a parking spot, on top of the $35,000 and up it costs at time of purchase.

Buried in monthly fees are parking charges averaging $43 a month but as high as $148, the team found.

“That makes it cheaper to just rent parking in some cases,” says Harrild.

Not surprisingly, luxury condos and hotel-condos like the Four Seasons Private Residences are in the Top Five list of highest maintenance fees at well over $1 per square foot.

But there are a number of other standouts, like The Indigo in the St. Lawrence Market area, where fees are now 90 cents per square foot. Units sell, on average, for $229 less per square foot than others in the area, according to condo.ca’s research.

Toy Factory suites have seen an almost 21 per cent price appreciation between 2009 and 2014. Indigo units dropped an average of five per cent, according to Condos.ca data.

Indigo property manager Joanne Selvagio was highly critical of the comparisons:

“Every building is different and unique and has differentials in costs based on its age and infrastructure. Toy Factory is an eight-storey building with 213 units. We have 104 units and there are increased costs to running an elevator 27 floors as opposed to eight floors.

“You can’t compare a seven-year-old building to a 25-year-old building. It’s apples to oranges.”

But Condos.ca has taken some of those factors into account, insists Langschmidt. In fact, one of the biggest surprises in all the data crunching was that old buildings don’t necessarily have higher fees.

Of condo buildings built or converted between 1975 and 1980 (Indigo was built in 1993), fees averaged 57 cents a square foot, says Langschmidt. He singled out the 121-unit Candy Factory Lofts on Queen St. W., converted in 2000, where fees average 39 cents per square foot.

Buildings with a pool, gym and concierge tend to pay a 31 per cent premium in fees, Langsmidt says. He also cites property management companies for escalating costs: The team is now compiling a list of companies that will show the average fees in buildings they manage.

Developers are also aware of growing concerns about fees and are quietly questioning the need for basketball courts, movie rooms, wine storage and libraries that may seldom get used.

“There’s a rethinking going on that less is okay,” says Paul Golini, executive vice president of Empire Communities. “People are telling us, ‘We’re here for the neighbourhood.’ ”

Tasso Eracles, chairman of FirstService Residential, which manages about 300 condo buildings, says cutting costs is much harder than it appears, especially without compromising the state of the building.

Heat, hydro and water can account for 40 to 50 per cent of costs and are climbing 8 to 10 per cent per year. (Post-2010 buildings have meters in each unit, giving owners more control over energy costs.)

Concierge, cleaning and other services can be another 25 per cent.

Provincial requirements, like an adequate reserve fund to cover major maintenance and repairs, are also a major fixed cost, says Eracles, and those costs could increase further as the province revamps the Condominium Act.

But Gagliano strongly disagrees.

What’s needed, he stresses, are more condo boards with “the collective courage required to make difficult decisions” like reducing staff. (Selvagio points out that Indigo has 24-hour security, at owners’ insistence.)

Gagliano went line-by-line through The Toy Factory’s reserve fund, along with engineers who have to give it final approval, questioning every assumption of future costs, some far beyond a reasonable rate of inflation.

It’s not a question of bleeding reserve funds, but “bringing the engineer onside with a new view of austerity, as to how to meet the new limits prescribed by law (in the reserve fund) and protect the interests of the owners.”

The Toy Factory board stepped up preventative maintenance aimed at prolonging the expected lifespan of major components of the seven-year-old conversion. Hallway heating was reduced by four degrees in winter and air conditioning turned down four degrees in summer.

Some residents complained, but the building’s budget for gas, water and hydro was $352,000 in 2010, Gagliano says. Last year, it was $261,000.
The Toy Factory’s property manager gets a 10 per cent bonus for viable cost-cutting solutions.

There’s growing concern in the condo sector that board members need training to handle budgets and other condo responsibilities, which is being considered in the Condo Act review.

Some condo residents, like Gagliano, have come to believe it’s better for buildings to impose the odd special assessment — a one-time fee for unexpected expenses — than continue to boost monthly fees.

“The reason The Toy Factory is so successful is that it has a board with smart, business-minded people,” says Langschmidt. “It is proof that maintenance fees can be kept in check.”
 
There are a lot of condos in the GTA that had Kitec pipe installed as it was quicker and a lot cheaper than copper. Many re-sales have this stuff in it and the buyers are NOT being informed in the status certificates that the units have Kitec piping.

When that stuff blows, it can get real ugly with the unit owner and the ones underneath having to find alternative housing for months while their units get repaired. (They still have to pay monthly condo fees, mortgages and proeprty taxes.)

By the way, when the plumbers destroy your beautiful ceramic walls to replace the tiles, you do have some replacement tiles on hand right?
 
An article a few days ago on the ever-increasing condo fees, this example specific to the Toy Factory Lofts.

http://www.thestar.com/business/2015/02/13/the-real-costs-of-maintenance-fees.html

Maintenance fees take a toll on Toronto condo owners.
Monthly charges seen as growing problem for industry.

By: Susan Pigg Business Reporter, Published on Fri Feb 13 2015

Four years ago, Craig Gagliano did something virtually unheard of in Toronto’s condo industry.

The resident of the west-end Toy Factory Lofts and president of its condo board cut monthly maintenance fees for each of the building’s 213 units — by a stunning 30 per cent.

While the price of living the carefree condo life continues to climb in buildings across the GTA — often at rates well above inflation — the well-kept Toy Factory Lofts still boast some of the lowest monthly maintenance fees in the city.

They now run just 31 cents per square foot for units without parking or a locker, almost half the city-wide average of 59 cents per square foot for similar units, according to new building-by-building analysis of Toronto condos done by the innovative site Condos.ca

That adds up to about $306 per month, compared to the city-wide average of $530 per month, for a 900-square-foot unit.

The low fees amount to more than just hundreds of dollars in savings per month for owners of the sought-after historic former factory in Liberty Village. They can have a major impact on a condo’s resale price.

“Our rate of property value increase has outpaced similar buildings and I believe it’s by virtue of the attractiveness of the low maintenance fees,” says Gagliano.
Condos.ca, which has already taken a hard look at price appreciation in various buildings, is now pulling back the veil on maintenance fees with a new online feature. It will allow buyers to get a sense of maintenance fees — and how much they’ve climbed — in almost 700 buildings, as well as townhouse projects, across Toronto. What it can’t really tell you is the reasons behind the costs.

The site’s creators — condo specialist Carl Langschmidt, his data-crunching brother Ahren, and realtor-partner Andrew Harrild — are still collecting and analyzing fee details on an additional 900 projects.

“One of the first things every buyer asks about is maintenance fees. They are the thing that is hurting the condo industry the most,” says Carl Langschmidt.

“People who buy homes don’t have monthly (costs) nearly as high as what some of these condos are charging. Granted, you don’t have to shovel your driveway or take your garbage out, so there is a service component in a condo that needs to be reflected. But condo fees are largely out of whack.”

They are also confusing, seemingly uncontrollable and the second-biggest cost of condo ownership, next to a mortgage, which is why the Condos.ca team has been amassing data for well over a year now from MLS and other real estate sites.

One of their most shocking discoveries was the high costs of a parking spot, on top of the $35,000 and up it costs at time of purchase.

Buried in monthly fees are parking charges averaging $43 a month but as high as $148, the team found.

“That makes it cheaper to just rent parking in some cases,” says Harrild.

Not surprisingly, luxury condos and hotel-condos like the Four Seasons Private Residences are in the Top Five list of highest maintenance fees at well over $1 per square foot.

But there are a number of other standouts, like The Indigo in the St. Lawrence Market area, where fees are now 90 cents per square foot. Units sell, on average, for $229 less per square foot than others in the area, according to condo.ca’s research.

Toy Factory suites have seen an almost 21 per cent price appreciation between 2009 and 2014. Indigo units dropped an average of five per cent, according to Condos.ca data.

Indigo property manager Joanne Selvagio was highly critical of the comparisons:

“Every building is different and unique and has differentials in costs based on its age and infrastructure. Toy Factory is an eight-storey building with 213 units. We have 104 units and there are increased costs to running an elevator 27 floors as opposed to eight floors.

“You can’t compare a seven-year-old building to a 25-year-old building. It’s apples to oranges.”

But Condos.ca has taken some of those factors into account, insists Langschmidt. In fact, one of the biggest surprises in all the data crunching was that old buildings don’t necessarily have higher fees.

Of condo buildings built or converted between 1975 and 1980 (Indigo was built in 1993), fees averaged 57 cents a square foot, says Langschmidt. He singled out the 121-unit Candy Factory Lofts on Queen St. W., converted in 2000, where fees average 39 cents per square foot.

Buildings with a pool, gym and concierge tend to pay a 31 per cent premium in fees, Langsmidt says. He also cites property management companies for escalating costs: The team is now compiling a list of companies that will show the average fees in buildings they manage.

Developers are also aware of growing concerns about fees and are quietly questioning the need for basketball courts, movie rooms, wine storage and libraries that may seldom get used.

“There’s a rethinking going on that less is okay,” says Paul Golini, executive vice president of Empire Communities. “People are telling us, ‘We’re here for the neighbourhood.’ ”

Tasso Eracles, chairman of FirstService Residential, which manages about 300 condo buildings, says cutting costs is much harder than it appears, especially without compromising the state of the building.

Heat, hydro and water can account for 40 to 50 per cent of costs and are climbing 8 to 10 per cent per year. (Post-2010 buildings have meters in each unit, giving owners more control over energy costs.)

Concierge, cleaning and other services can be another 25 per cent.

Provincial requirements, like an adequate reserve fund to cover major maintenance and repairs, are also a major fixed cost, says Eracles, and those costs could increase further as the province revamps the Condominium Act.

But Gagliano strongly disagrees.

What’s needed, he stresses, are more condo boards with “the collective courage required to make difficult decisions” like reducing staff. (Selvagio points out that Indigo has 24-hour security, at owners’ insistence.)

Gagliano went line-by-line through The Toy Factory’s reserve fund, along with engineers who have to give it final approval, questioning every assumption of future costs, some far beyond a reasonable rate of inflation.

It’s not a question of bleeding reserve funds, but “bringing the engineer onside with a new view of austerity, as to how to meet the new limits prescribed by law (in the reserve fund) and protect the interests of the owners.”

The Toy Factory board stepped up preventative maintenance aimed at prolonging the expected lifespan of major components of the seven-year-old conversion. Hallway heating was reduced by four degrees in winter and air conditioning turned down four degrees in summer.

Some residents complained, but the building’s budget for gas, water and hydro was $352,000 in 2010, Gagliano says. Last year, it was $261,000.
The Toy Factory’s property manager gets a 10 per cent bonus for viable cost-cutting solutions.

There’s growing concern in the condo sector that board members need training to handle budgets and other condo responsibilities, which is being considered in the Condo Act review.

Some condo residents, like Gagliano, have come to believe it’s better for buildings to impose the odd special assessment — a one-time fee for unexpected expenses — than continue to boost monthly fees.

“The reason The Toy Factory is so successful is that it has a board with smart, business-minded people,” says Langschmidt. “It is proof that maintenance fees can be kept in check.”

It is one thing to cut fees in a three year old condo when everthing is new but it is a whole different thing when a building ages. I know many condos that have cut fees and in the short term everything seems great. In the long term, its a disaster. If your condo goes this route, don't stay long. Sell at the first sign that property values have peaked. Don't be on title when the special assessments start. http://bit.ly/1yMiBNV
 
It is one thing to cut fees in a three year old condo when everthing is new but it is a whole different thing when a building ages. I know many condos that have cut fees and in the short term everything seems great. In the long term, its a disaster. If your condo goes this route, don't stay long. Sell at the first sign that property values have peaked. Don't be on title when the special assessments start. http://bit.ly/1yMiBNV

Thanks Condo Madness. I completely agree with your assessment.

This report was as scientific as the Star's recent Gardasil disaster, in which it used a few anecdotes instead of actual scientific data to make a case against the HPV vaccine. The GTA has hundreds, if not thousands, of conos and condo boards and the insinuation here is that board members are ignorant and negligent. The implication that all boards don't go through RFS's "line-by-line" is probably giving a lot of hard-working and dedicated VOLUNTEERS in many condos a big headache right now.

Statements like this are completely irresponsible:

Toy Factory suites have seen an almost 21 per cent price appreciation between 2009 and 2014. Indigo units dropped an average of five per cent, according to Condos.ca data.

What does one have to do with the other?

There is so much nonsense and so many non sequiters that I can't help but feel that this entire report was agenda-driven.
 
I've heard on a few occasions where property management continues to give work to the same people. It is customary to get 3 quotes. This doesn't happen, the jobs keep going to the same company, trades, etc. Same security company, same cleaning staff. All the money gets funnelled to the prop management company and the fees increase.

This doesn't happen at every condo, but it happens a lot. Also, you have to watch out for who's on the board. Many have ties to the builder. This never benefits the owners.

Lastly, building construction. Condos are not built for the long haul. They're put up as quickly and cheaply as possible. If a builder will cut corners on things you can see. What kind of corners are cut on things you can't see? The windows, plumbing, heating systems.... These are extremely costly to replace and in many occasions are not installed properly or with quality materials.

Condo fees are high in general. They will end up being obscene in the not too distant future as a lot of these cheaply made condos start to fail.

With houses, the same thing is happening with the flip houses. A lot of these houses are built for a quick flip so they'll focus on the finishes and the "oohs and aaahhs" but not on the actual things you can't see like wiring, plumbing, insulation, etc. We're seeing this in virtually every industry. Less focus on quality and more focus on turning out the product as quickly as possible.

The article is interesting. Parking is not a good investment IMO. I have never purchased a precon condo with parking and would rather rent it because the maintenance costs seem like a free for all. Pay $45K for a parking spot that may be utter crap (you can't pick it) and then pay $50+ a month in maintenance fees? Ridiculous. You don't make that money back when it comes time to sell.

The comparison of the two buildings are dumb since they are nothing alike in any way. However, I would never buy in the Indigo building due to its sky high fees, so it's obviously a problem. I have by-passed that building many times when looking for a condo to purchase. There are other buildings in that area and others with ridiculously high fees that I would never purchase in. I do like that condo fees are being looked at, though. Keep the articles coming... I got my popcorn ready.
 
Thanks Condo Madness. I completely agree with your assessment.

This report was as scientific as the Star's recent Gardasil disaster, in which it used a few anecdotes instead of actual scientific data to make a case against the HPV vaccine. The GTA has hundreds, if not thousands, of conos and condo boards and the insinuation here is that board members are ignorant and negligent. The implication that all boards don't go through RFS's "line-by-line" is probably giving a lot of hard-working and dedicated VOLUNTEERS in many condos a big headache right now.

Statements like this are completely irresponsible:



What does one have to do with the other?

There is so much nonsense and so many non sequiters that I can't help but feel that this entire report was agenda-driven.

The Toronto Star article seems to me to be more of a press release than researched journalism.

I remember the 2011 Toronto Star column praising Manzoor Khan, owner of Channel Property Management, for saving troubled condos with by-law loans. The article made him sound like a hero. Two weeks after this articlle was published, Khan fled the country after a $20 million by-law fraud scam was uncovered.
http://www.condomadness.info/Khan-miracles.html
 
The Toronto Star article seems to me to be more of a press release than researched journalism.

I remember the 2011 Toronto Star column praising Manzoor Khan, owner of Channel Property Management, for saving troubled condos with by-law loans. The article made him sound like a hero. Two weeks after this articlle was published, Khan fled the country after a $20 million by-law fraud scam was uncovered.
http://www.condomadness.info/Khan-miracles.html

I don't remember that story. But, if it appeared in the New in Homes & Condos section, it was ad-driven. That section is just one giant development advertisement with some articles tossed in, all by freelancers I note. That's a dead giveaway.

But this article appeared on the front of the Business section and it's by the real estate reporter who I thought was better than this.
 
Much of the massive near-future cost of condo window replacement could be eliminated if someone would invent or produce insulated glass panels that did not rely on inert gases between the panes. It is impossible to guarantee the gas seals for more than a decade or two, while many seals fail upon delivery and installation.

Instead, we need a clear insulating gel or other solid insulating substance between the panes. Or, make the panes solid, like ballistic glass, but with non-thermal bridging layers within the glass. Of course both the capabilities of science and the limitations of cost will be factors.
 
With the temperature forecast to be approaching 30°C, isn't nice that City of Toronto by-laws require the heating to stay on until June 1st. Have tenants in your condo suite, the heat must be on. Just in case it gets below 21°C at night. The by-law requires heating to stay on to keep the unit up to 21°C, at least.

Want to save energy? Can't do that when you have tenants. Want to turn on the air-conditioning before June 1st? It will be a fight with the furnace and the by-law inspectors.

Oh, the heat must be back on starting September 15th, no matter what the weather forecast is.

Another reason for home ownership.
 
With the temperature forecast to be approaching 30°C, isn't nice that City of Toronto by-laws require the heating to stay on until June 1st. Have tenants in your condo suite, the heat must be on. Just in case it gets below 21°C at night. The by-law requires heating to stay on to keep the unit up to 21°C, at least.

Want to save energy? Can't do that when you have tenants. Want to turn on the air-conditioning before June 1st? It will be a fight with the furnace and the by-law inspectors.

Oh, the heat must be back on starting September 15th, no matter what the weather forecast is.

Another reason for home ownership.

How can they enforce that when the condo controls that? My building is switching to AC on Wednesday (with the boiler being switched off on Monday). I can't do anything about it if I wanted to.
 

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