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Clinton says U.S. could "totally obliterate" Iran

In any case, Israel's status as a "democracy" as we understand it is questionable.

It is? In which ways? Seriously, I would like to know why Israel isn't a democracy but, say, Germany, where citizenship to this day is based on bloodline and which thusly keeps millions of German-born Turks completely disenfranchised, is.

Freedom House rating of Israel: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2007&country=7199 . It puts Israel in the same category as Canada. That might even be generous to Canada; Israel's political system is vastly more representative than ours, whether you're Jewish, Arab or something in between.

Now obviously Gaza and the West Bank are another matter entirely, but you said Israel. I don't see the US's status of democracy being called into question because of what happens in Iraq.

Incidentally the vast, vast majority of Israelis would like to see some kind of Palestinian state as soon as practicable. Anyone want to make any predictions on whether that will be a democracy?

Believe it or not, Israelis (of whom the great majority are totally secular and actually pretty left-wing) aren't too crazy about sending their kids to protect crazy and mostly American settlers in the territories. I think unilateral withdrawal is what's probably going to happen in the West Bank, though the stream of rockets from Gaza since the withdrawal there has made that a much tougher sell politically, since the WB abuts some major population centres and not just desert and some small towns like the Strip.
 
Yeah, I've always felt sorry for the millions of moderate secular Israelis who work, defend and pay taxes to support the handful of ultra-Orthodox yahoos that avoid military service, flout taxation and just keep popping out tax-liable children while living on occupied land. All of the Israelis I ever encountered (who were, of course, of the moderate secular variety) shared a moral compass very much in line with my own but they always kept mum when I tried to express my indignation about their political situation.

I'm a Torontonian. I already get upset when I see how reticent people are about the TTC, its declining service, rising fares and contemptuous union. I can only imagine how much I would boil over if I lived in Tel Aviv, where the docile majority are really held captive by the idiotic interests of a small few.
 
If I was in charge of Israel today, I'd cede the West Bank back to Jordan, and Gaza back to Egypt. Then I'd build my big border wall on the original 1967 borders, with the exception of Jerusalem, which I'd keep for Israel. There will be no travel permitted through the border wall (with the exception of Muslim holy visits to Jerusalem, under travel Visa restrictions), no migrant Muslims to be employed on the Israeli side. Israelis themselves will have to do the dirty jobs that they have become accustomed to using West Bank Muslims for.

Jerusalem will be a definitely point of contention for the Muslims, but too bad....Israel won Jerusalem fair and square in war (that the Muslims started), much as the Muslims themselves captured Mecca from the Quraysh in the Battle of Badr in 624 AD.

So, that's my solution, forced separation, Jews keep Jerusalem.
 
If I was in charge of Israel today, I'd cede the West Bank back to Jordan, and Gaza back to Egypt. Then I'd build my big border wall on the original 1967 borders, with the exception of Jerusalem, which I'd keep for Israel. There will be no travel permitted through the border wall (with the exception of Muslim holy visits to Jerusalem, under travel Visa restrictions), no migrant Muslims to be employed on the Israeli side. Israelis themselves will have to do the dirty jobs that they have become accustomed to using West Bank Muslims for.

Jerusalem will be a definitely point of contention for the Muslims, but too bad....Israel won Jerusalem fair and square in war (that the Muslims started), much as the Muslims themselves captured Mecca from the Quraysh in the Battle of Badr in 624 AD.

So, that's my solution, forced separation, Jews keep Jerusalem.

No argument there. Don't forget Christian Palestinian religious access to J-town too (what with the whole Jesus thing).

And as for the loss of Palestinian workers on the Israeli side, little chance Israelis are going to start doing those jobs. More likely there would just be an expansion of the (already considerable) immigration from SE Asia. That in itself is an interesting phenomenon. Much of it is of the temporary gastarbeiter type, but apparently a fair number of Thais, etc. are actually staying permanently. There are parts of Tel Aviv where it's really noticeable. Just one more addition to Israel's already pretty diverse multiculture...

Edit: I should add the caveat to the above that the one big way in which Israel's political system is not representative--or at least not effective--is in that due to their funny position in the political landscape the religious parties, which represent a tiny proportion of the country, wield totally disproportionate power. Unfortunately that is the kind of distortion you can get in a coalition-based pure PR electoral scheme. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some moves over the next few years to temper this by raising the electoral threshold for the Knesset or moving to MMP.
 
If I was in charge of Israel today, I'd cede the West Bank back to Jordan, and Gaza back to Egypt. Then I'd build my big border wall on the original 1967 borders, with the exception of Jerusalem, which I'd keep for Israel. There will be no travel permitted through the border wall (with the exception of Muslim holy visits to Jerusalem, under travel Visa restrictions), no migrant Muslims to be employed on the Israeli side. Israelis themselves will have to do the dirty jobs that they have become accustomed to using West Bank Muslims for.

Jerusalem will be a definitely point of contention for the Muslims, but too bad....Israel won Jerusalem fair and square in war (that the Muslims started), much as the Muslims themselves captured Mecca from the Quraysh in the Battle of Badr in 624 AD.

So, that's my solution, forced separation, Jews keep Jerusalem.

A reasonable approach, but...

POINTZ:

1. You would likely be killed by an extremist Jew in the same way Rabin was.
2. Jordan does not want the West Bank.
3. Egypt does not want Gaza.
4. Why return to the 1967 borders minus East Jerusalem? What's your rationale? The capture of East Jerusalem is not recognised by the international community. Could East Jerusalem be Palestinian? Could Jerusalem have some sort of special status? Most of the residents of East Jerusalem are Muslim Arabs.
 
A reasonable approach, but...

POINTZ:

2. Jordan does not want the West Bank.
3. Egypt does not want Gaza.
4. Why return to the 1967 borders minus East Jerusalem? What's your rationale? The capture of East Jerusalem is not recognised by the international community. Could East Jerusalem be Palestinian? Could Jerusalem have some sort of special status? Most of the residents of East Jerusalem are Muslim Arabs.

To 2 and 3: why not? Isn't that the great unasked question here? I find it baffling that the Palestinians' Arab brothers and sisters appear so willing to bash Israel over their treatment, but totally uninterested in helping them out. Could it be that, perhaps, it is in the interests of these regimes to keep Palestinians destitute? Jordan is a majority-Palestinian state already.

In my (and perhaps Beez's also) perfect world, what the final status of the West Bank and Gaza is not that important, so long as Israel has nothing to do with either. Let them become an independent state, let them be absorbed by their larger neighbours, whatever. But the bottom line needs to be that Israel gets out, and the Palestinians become someone else's problem.

As for East Jerusalem, depends what you mean by "East." I have no problem with Israel's ceding the majority-Muslim parts of the city...but the tricky bit, as always, is the old city. I think either Israeli control or some kind of international trusteeship for it would be OK--Israel has shown pretty solidly that it is capable of ensuring Muslim access to the Haram al-Sharif and so on...when it was under Arab control, the reverse was obviously not the case.

Of course, this is all dependent on Palestinian East Jerusalem not being used as a base to launch rockets at West Jerusalem. That's the other tricky bit.
 
I find it baffling that the Palestinians' Arab brothers and sisters appear so willing to bash Israel over their treatment, but totally uninterested in helping them out.

So do I. The Arab regimes in the neighbourhood are useless at the best of times and counterproductive in the worst of times.

Could it be that, perhaps, it is in the interests of these regimes to keep Palestinians destitute? Jordan is a majority-Palestinian state already.

Yup. Could be.

In my (and perhaps Beez's also) perfect world, what the final status of the West Bank and Gaza is not that important, so long as Israel has nothing to do with either. Let them become an independent state, let them be absorbed by their larger neighbours, whatever. But the bottom line needs to be that Israel gets out, and the Palestinians become someone else's problem.

I agree. Israel has to get out. The roadblocks, the land grabs, the formation of new settlements, and the humiliation has to come to an end.

As for East Jerusalem, depends what you mean by "East." I have no problem with Israel's ceding the majority-Muslim parts of the city...but the tricky bit, as always, is the old city. I think either Israeli control or some kind of international trusteeship for it would be OK--Israel has shown pretty solidly that it is capable of ensuring Muslim access to the Haram al-Sharif and so on...when it was under Arab control, the reverse was obviously not the case.

Of course, this is all dependent on Palestinian East Jerusalem not being used as a base to launch rockets at West Jerusalem. That's the other tricky bit.

I agree the status of Jerusalem is probably the trickiest issue. The other tricky issue is a non-issue, in my option... the so-called "right of return". It's unrealistic, undoable, and counterproductive to negotiations. The Palestinians who lost their land and their homes with the creation of Israel should be compensated somehow, but a right of return is not doable.
 
If all the otherwise idiotic politics of the region could be cleared away, Jerusalem would be the only issue.
 
Probably right. I think I lot of people don't realize just how tricky Jerusalem is, in terms of the physical proximity of the stuff either side will never compromise on. By this I mean the fact that the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site, is literally underneath the Haram al-Sharif from which Mohammed is said to have ascended to heaven. They are physically part of the same structure. If nothing else, I think that shows the God, if He exists, certainly has a sense of irony.

I agree with Ganja about the right of return for sure; some kind of compensation package (which Israel can certainly afford, given the ludicrously high economic growth it's enjoying despite all the trouble) is the right thing to do.

Israel's presence in the West Bank, and forays into Gaza, are clearly not doing much for its security and also just complicating (or prolonging) a Palestinian civil war between Fatah and Hamas. I think there's a good argument that if the IDF were removed from the equation and the Palestinians had to focus on actually building a society with defined borders, things could improve fairly quickly. Part of that, however, is having a border; to this end a lot of settlements will have to go, though it's pretty unlikely that all will.
 
Probably right. I think I lot of people don't realize just how tricky Jerusalem is, in terms of the physical proximity of the stuff either side will never compromise on. By this I mean the fact that the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site, is literally underneath the Haram al-Sharif from which Mohammed is said to have ascended to heaven. They are physically part of the same structure. If nothing else, I think that shows the God, if He exists, certainly has a sense of irony.


What was God thinking in putting all his holy sites in one area? Like two blocks from each other. Is the idea for God ... He just put it in there like, "I just want to see who wants it more."

-jon stewart
 
Yeah, I've always felt sorry for the millions of moderate secular Israelis who work, defend and pay taxes to support the handful of ultra-Orthodox yahoos that avoid military service, flout taxation and just keep popping out tax-liable children while living on occupied land. All of the Israelis I ever encountered (who were, of course, of the moderate secular variety) shared a moral compass very much in line with my own but they always kept mum when I tried to express my indignation about their political situation.

I'm a Torontonian. I already get upset when I see how reticent people are about the TTC, its declining service, rising fares and contemptuous union. I can only imagine how much I would boil over if I lived in Tel Aviv, where the docile majority are really held captive by the idiotic interests of a small few.

Also remember when you live in an environment where you are more likely to die at any given time, it changes your outlook on life and what you value in life. The very definition of time is changed.

If you live around constant bombing and haste, you learn to live "in the moment" far more often and care much less about the distant future.

We North Americans have had hundreds of years to establish a society where we don't even question the strength of our future. Except for a few moments in the American Civil war, people didn't question whether they would be living the next day. Even then, people mostly chose to partake or not partake in a more gentleman's war rather than the total chaos that is the middle east.

This goes for other more civilized regions of the world (and we all know North America has many faults), but the truth is that the very definition of life changes based on circumstances.

Americans should enjoy the fact that they are allowed to argue so pointlessly over abortion, because other societies aren't so thankful to even have the pleasure of arguing over a real future of actual living people due to their unchosen circumstances.

Even within the United States, there are microcosms for what you see in the Middle East. Urban America can be one of the most uninviting, dangerous, most poverty-stricken part of the western industrialized world. Why do you think so many urban poverty stricken areas have people who just don't care and don't even try?

Same reason why many people in the Middle East act the way they do.

I would be thankful that Canada doesn't have as many microcosms of these kinds to reflect on, they are hard to change even in the best of circumstances. Until then American cities will be dotted with many square miles of dire third world poverty. The recent rash of shootings where 26 people were shot in a single weekend in Chicago (primarily in a certain area of the metropolitan area) should remain a reminder of what happens even in the western world.
 
Pursuant to this dormant discussion, I paste below an op-ed from the NYT by Jeff Goldberg on the Israeli-American relationship. Basically his (quite convincing) thesis is that equating being "pro-Israel" with blank-cheque support for anything the Israeli government wants to do is bad for Israel, since it just ends up empowering the right-wing there and distorting the politics of a country in which the great majority of people want an equitable settlement ASAP. Makes sense to me. Incidentally I always thought that, conversely, if progressives in Europe and North America would drop lines like "Zionism is racism" and stop questioning Israel's right to exist and instead teamed up with the (large and vibrant) Israeli left things would be much, much closer to a solution.

Israel’s ‘American Problem’

By JEFFREY GOLDBERG
Washington

WHEN the prime minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, arrived at a Jerusalem ballroom in February to address the grandees of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations (a redundancy, since there are no minor American Jewish organizations), he was pugnacious, as is customary, but he was also surprisingly defensive, and not because of his relentlessly compounding legal worries. He knew that scattered about the audience were Jewish leaders who considered him hopelessly spongy — and very nearly traitorous — on an issue they believed to be of cosmological importance: the sanctity of a “united†Jerusalem, under the sole sovereignty of Israel.

These Jewish leaders, who live in Chicago and New York and behind the gates of Boca Raton country clubs, loathe the idea that Mr. Olmert, or a prime minister yet elected, might one day cede the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem to the latent state of Palestine. These are neighborhoods — places like Sur Baher, Beit Hanina and Abu Dis — that the Conference of Presidents could not find with a forked stick and Ari Ben Canaan as a guide. And yet many Jewish leaders believe that an Israeli compromise on the boundaries of greater Jerusalem — or on nearly any other point of disagreement — is an axiomatic invitation to catastrophe.

One leader, Joshua Katzen, of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, told me, “I think that Israelis don’t have the big view of global jihad that American Jews do, because Israelis are caught up in their daily emergencies.†When I asked him how his Israeli friends responded to this, he answered: “They say, ‘When your son has to fight, you can have an opinion.’ But I tell them that it is precisely because your son has to fight that you have a harder time seeing the larger picture.â€

When I spoke to Mr. Olmert a few days after his meeting with the Conference of Presidents, he made only brief mention of his Diaspora antagonists; he said that certain American Jews he would not name have been “investing a lot of money trying to overthrow the government of Israel.†But he was expansive, and persuasive, on the Zionist need for a Palestinian state. Without a Palestine — a viable, territorially contiguous Palestine — Arabs under Israeli control will, in the not-distant future, outnumber the country’s Jews.

“We now have the Palestinians running an Algeria-style campaign against Israel, but what I fear is that they will try to run a South Africa-type campaign against us,†he said. If this happens, and worldwide sanctions are imposed as they were against the white-minority government, “the state of Israel is finished,†Mr. Olmert said in an earlier interview. This is why he, and his mentor, former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, turned so fiercely against the Jewish settlement movement, which has entangled Israel unnecessarily in the lives of West Bank Palestinians. Once, men like Mr. Sharon and Mr. Olmert saw the settlers as the vanguards of Zionism; today, the settlements are seen, properly, as the forerunner of a binational state. In other words, as the end of Israel as a Jewish-majority democracy.

Other Israeli leaders have spoken with similar directness. The former prime minister, and current defense minister, Ehud Barak, told The Jerusalem Post in 1999: “Every attempt to keep hold of this area as one political entity leads, necessarily, to either a nondemocratic or a non-Jewish state. Because if the Palestinians vote, then it is a binational state, and if they don’t vote it is an apartheid state that might then become another Belfast or Bosnia.â€

The unsentimental analysis of men like Mr. Olmert and Mr. Barak came to mind this week as I spoke to Barack Obama about his views on Israel. He spoke with seemingly genuine feeling about the post-Holocaust necessity of Israel; about his cultural affinity with Jews (he may be the first presidential candidate to confess that his sensibility was shaped in part by the novels of Philip Roth); and about his adamant opposition to the terrorist group Hamas. He offered some mild criticism of the settlement movement (“not helpfulâ€) and promised to be unyielding in his commitment to Israeli security.

There are some Jews who would be made anxious by Mr. Obama even if he changed his first name to Baruch and had his bar mitzvah on Masada. But after speaking with him it struck me that, by the standards of rhetorical correctness maintained by such groups as the Conference of Presidents and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, or Aipac, Mr. Obama is actually more pro-Israel than either Ehud Olmert or Ehud Barak. (To say nothing of John McCain and President George W. Bush, who spoke to the Knesset last week about external threats to Israel’s safety but made no mention of the country’s missteps.)

This is an existentially unhealthy state of affairs. I am not wishing that the next president be hostile to Israel, God forbid. But what Israel needs is an American president who not only helps defend it against the existential threat posed by Iran and Islamic fundamentalism, but helps it to come to grips with the existential threat from within. A pro-Israel president today would be one who prods the Jewish state — publicly, continuously and vociferously — to create conditions on the West Bank that would allow for the birth of a moderate Palestinian state. Most American Jewish leaders are opposed, not without reason, to negotiations with Hamas, but if the moderates aren’t strengthened, Hamas will be the only party left.

And the best way to bring about the birth of a Palestinian state is to reverse — not merely halt, but reverse — the West Bank settlement project. The dismantling of settlements is the one step that would buttress the dwindling band of Palestinian moderates in their struggle against the fundamentalists of Hamas.

So why won’t American leaders push Israel publicly? Or, more to the point, why do presidential candidates dance so delicately around this question? The answer is obvious: The leadership of the organized American Jewish community has allowed the partisans of settlement to conflate support for the colonization of the West Bank with support for Israel itself. John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, in their polemical work “The Israel Lobby,†have it wrong: They argue, unpersuasively, that American support for Israel hurts America. It doesn’t. But unthinking American support does hurt Israel.

The people of Aipac and the Conference of Presidents are well meaning, and their work in strengthening the overall relationship between America and Israel has ensured them a place in the world to come. But what’s needed now is a radical rethinking of what it means to be pro-Israel. Barack Obama and John McCain, the likely presidential nominees, are smart, analytical men who understand the manifold threats Israel faces 60 years after its founding. They should be able to talk, in blunt terms, about the full range of dangers faced by Israel, including the danger Israel has brought upon itself.

But this won’t happen until Aipac and the leadership of the American Jewish community allow it to happen.

Jeffrey Goldberg is a national correspondent for The Atlantic and the author of “Prisoners: A Story of Friendship and Terror.â€
 
I don't think many European or North American progressives question Israel's right to exist, except those on the fringe far left. But, yes, the 'blank cheque' for Israel approach has been disasterous. The message that you don't have to support Israeli politics to be a good Jew also has to get out there.
 
i think there is alot of post-holocaust guilt and alot of politicians are afraid of looking and being called anti-semitic and therefore don't criticize. being critical of some government policies doesn't make you anti-jew or anti-isreal.
 

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