"Classy" Chinese food - does it exist?

[wild goose chase]

General Tao Chicken, which is a Chinese American dish, is claimed to be spicy and from Hunan, but the Hunanese found the dish to be too sweet for them (and most versions are not spicy to Hunanese standards).

I think it's pretty well known nowadays that Chinese American or Chinese Canadian (if there is a difference?) cuisine is a homegrown North American variety different from the original Chinese food of the immigrants' homeland, just like Italian American is from that in Italy or Tex-Mex from authentic Mexican.

There's mention that Italian cuisine is seen as very classy, but people often mean "authentic" Italian when they are discussing this, often not Americanized or Canadianized Italian cuisine like Frankie Tomatto's.

3) no bones or shell, just large piece of meat. Only exception seems to be chicken wings/ribs. The bones seem to bother them a lot, when the Chinese love the bones/meat around the bones.
4) no animal body parts (from eye, tongues, neck to liver, intestine, stomach, feet to tails) other than just the meat.

Well, the fact that more North Americans eschew things like organ meats, meat on the bone and being pickier rather than eating all parts of the animal probably has to do with the earlier wealth/industrialization of the continent compared to others as well as being a "newer" culture. In most pre-industrial cuisines in the world I'd imagine people are more thrifty in this regard and use all the resources they can get.

I actually like many kinds of organ meat like chopped liver and even stuff like haggis. Organ meat is actually cheaper than regular meat at the butcher because it's less popular though.

6) avoid "exotic" animals. For many, even duck/rabbit meat is considered adventurous. Pigeon? Donkey? Horse? Snake? Grasshopper?

Regarding duck or rabbit, I've actually occasionally seen those even at grocery stores like No Frills in Toronto. Probably the issue with "exotic" animals is that they're not as heavily farmed as the conventional livestock so fewer people would be able to find them regularly to buy and cook them. However, those who hunt will often eat a more diverse variety of wild animals. I'm met rural Americans who've eaten small game like squirrels too.

For pigeon (squab) and horse, I believe many European cultures still eat those and they are also western (I think also even in places like Quebec where they might be more popular than in Ontario), though not mainstream Anglo-North American. I remember reading about how the US closed down its horse slaughterhouses a while ago (not sure what the current status is) but Canada still has them and I even recall articles mentioning restaurants you could get it in Toronto. I've never heard of donkey meat before being eaten in North America though and am not sure which cultures eat it.

With regard to snake, I haven't heard of any Canadians eating snake but I know there are things like rattlesnake round-ups in Texas where some people will end up taking the animals for meat in addition to their skins.

Grasshoppers aren't something I've ever heard of being eaten in North America either, though I do know they are eaten elsewhere in the Old World. They, well specifically, some kinds of locust, are the only insect that's kosher too. If you count western culture going as far back as Roman or Biblical times, John the Baptist is recorded as having eaten wild honey and locusts while in the wilderness.

 

[wild goose chase]

1) there are way more Chinese immigrants than Japanese/French and probably Italians too, and one of their main business is restaurants. Sadly, they compete in an unhealthy way - on price rather on quality. The result is you mostly see cheap Chinese restaurants with their gross hygiene conditions, poor décor and bad service. The primary reason is that they target mostly Chinese clientele, which at least in the past used to be low income. So class is of least concern to them. Such trend persisted for decades and gives Chinese food a bad rep - almost synonymous to cheap in North America, until recently the more wealth Chinese immigrated here.

Currently, yeah, there are more Chinese than Italian immigrants nowadays but a generation or two ago, it would have been the other way around. But then the Italian cuisine that is seen as classy is more tied to the image of authentic Italian food close to the European side of things rather than Italian-North American like Frankie Tomatto's or the American chain Olive Garden, which would be more analogous to Chinese-Canadian/American cuisine like you'd find at Mandarin or Manchu Wok.

 

[Johnny Au]

Hot dogs, which are quintessentially American, are originally made using intestines. Cheap hot dogs found on the street and major attractions and sold in grocery stores use plastic casing for the hot dogs. Premium hot dogs and other premium sausages are still made using intestines. In fact, to me, I prefer hot dogs and other sausages cased in intestines.

Believe it or not, sausages (including hot dogs) are one of the very few commonly consumed North American foods that regularly use organs.

 

[junctionist]

The Chinese are amazing when it comes to cooking. It's remarkable that not only does China have an amazing variety of native dishes, but its diaspora also came up with various new dishes and foods in the west. I'm a big fan of the dish known as "crispy beef", which originated in Calgary. The Chinese and Italians are probably the world leaders in cooking.

 

[prosperegal]

I'm CBC (Canadian Born Chinese)/Jooksing (Canto "slur" for people like me - culturally Anglo/Canadian, ethnically Chinese. Basically neither one nor the other - at least according to our immigrant relatives!) and agree with an earlier poster that many Chinese restaurant owners/managers are HORRIBLE with marketing. They're also HORRIBLE with digital/social media. Most restaurants in Markham, Scarborough and Chinatown - save for a few places owned by CBC-owned places barely have a website and are DEFINITELY not on Facebook or Instagram (Instagram is a MUST for restaurants, I think). I swear those places will become extinct within a few years just because they're not getting new customers. As for fried rice/fried noodles and whether it's really "Chinese" - I'm inclined to say yes. At a banquet, fried rice and noodles are always served at the end of the meal and there are plenty of what my parents call "jook, fun, mein, fan" (congee, rice noodles, wheat noodles, rice) restaurants (e.g. Sam Woo) in Chinese-dominant areas. We just don't order fried noodles or fried rice as a predominant starch for regular meals. To be quite honest, I'd love to see restaurants experiment with other grains. Wouldn't it be cool to see, say, Yeung Chow fried quinoa or freekeh? Yeung Chow fried rice ingredients, sub rice with quinoa or freekeh. Of course, the immigrant gen would find it weird. (NOTE: I heard Yeung Chow fried rice was actually invented in Hong Kong. It is DEFINITELY NOT from Yeung Chow).

As for "classy" Chinese restaurants, Lai Wah Heen? Haven't been in a couple of years. Dynasty is okay, but it was better when it was on Bloor (where La Societe is now). And we have to go beyond Cantonese and Shanghainese cuisine (and maybe Hong Kong cuisine - as in the cha chaan teng). China is huge! I guess it has to do with where immigrants are from.

Note: Someone earlier brought up DaiLo: Anyone think they were forced to change the name TO DaiLo because, well, GwaiLo is racist sounding? Also DaiLo sounds gangsta-esque. Not surprised that its sister restaurant (brother restaurant? After all, "dailo" is Cantonese slang for elder brother) is called LoPan (Big Boss - again, gangster (at least what I know from Cantonese movies and TV)).

 

[wild goose chase]

I'm CBC (Canadian Born Chinese)/Jooksing (Canto "slur" for people like me - culturally Anglo/Canadian, ethnically Chinese. Basically neither one nor the other - at least according to our immigrant relatives!)

Is Canadian born Chinese used here as another name for a Chinese Canadian (a Canadian citizen that's Chinese by descent) that is born in Canada? I do hear terms like that but am often not quite sure when and in which context people use it versus the other.

In mainstream media and in popular usage by far, it seems like the default term seems to be the ethnicity (or ancestry) first and nationality second, like Chinese Canadian, Italian American, African American etc. at least for Americans and Canadians.

 

[prosperegal]

Is Canadian born Chinese used here as another name for a Chinese Canadian (a Canadian citizen that's Chinese by descent) that is born in Canada? I do hear terms like that but am often not quite sure when and in which context people use it versus the other.

In mainstream media and in popular usage by far, it seems like the default term seems to be the ethnicity (or ancestry) first and nationality second, like Chinese Canadian, Italian American, African American etc. at least for Americans and Canadians.

Canadian born Chinese means someone who was born in Canada and is of Chinese descent. Americans use ABC quite often (as do Australians - for Australian born Chinese) and British, BBC. Yes, they are all broadcasting networks too! A Chinese Canadian (or American, Australian, British) is anyone with said citizenship. My parents are Chinese Canadian, but they came when they were in their 20s.

 

[ksun]

Currently, yeah, there are more Chinese than Italian immigrants nowadays but a generation or two ago, it would have been the other way around. But then the Italian cuisine that is seen as classy is more tied to the image of authentic Italian food close to the European side of things rather than Italian-North American like Frankie Tomatto's or the American chain Olive Garden, which would be more analogous to Chinese-Canadian/American cuisine like you'd find at Mandarin or Manchu Wok.

That's true. This is why I don't understand why the earlier Chinese restaurants changed their cuisine so dramatically to suit the western palate, to the point where it is almost impossible to find authentic Chinese restaurants. Maybe because the population was small and they had to deal mostly with the locals? And I suppose the more authentic Italian cuisine is more compatible with North America taste.

Additionally, this has to do with image. Italy is "European", so North Americans are probably more likely to associate its food with "class". China is just a poor Asian country in the fast east and few would be proud to tell others he had authentic Chinese food. It is like when the French eat fois gras, many North Americans think it is some sort of highly sophisticated food (although they may not like it), but the Chinese eat chicken/duck/goose liver all the time, and North Americans respond with a "urgh" or "eww". It can be a lot more about how the original country is viewed.

 

[prosperegal]

That's true. This is why I don't understand why the earlier Chinese restaurants changed their cuisine so dramatically to suit the western palate, to the point where it is almost impossible to find authentic Chinese restaurants. Maybe because the population was small and they had to deal mostly with the locals? And I suppose the more authentic Italian cuisine is more compatible with North America taste.

Additionally, this has to do with image. Italy is "European", so North Americans are probably more likely to associate its food with "class". China is just a poor Asian country in the fast east and few would be proud to tell others he had authentic Chinese food. It is like when the French eat fois gras, many North Americans think it is some sort of highly sophisticated food (although they may not like it), but the Chinese eat chicken/duck/goose liver all the time, and North Americans respond with a "urgh" or "eww". It can be a lot more about how the original country is viewed.

It doesn't help that Chinese people (well, immigrant gen) believe the same thing. If anyone tries to make it "nicer," they accuse the management of trying too hard to attract western clientele into more "authentic" Chinese cuisine. My family has friends who HONESTLY believe that. They think the most "authentic" foods only come from hole-in-the-wall places catering to immigrants fresh off the plane (or not-so-fresh off the plane). Those places have better "wok-hay" (literal translation is wok-air - not sure exactly what it means other than flavour). "Classy" and Asian only applies to Japanese food. Even CBC/jooksing style food - restaurants owned and managed by CBCs/Chinese Canadians raised in Canada who have been influenced not only by their family's cuisine, but also other cuisines aren't "real" enough to them. Even my parents, who are quite sophisticated foodies - especially for 60-something Boomers - have kind of squashed at R&D and DaiLo's menu.

 

[ksun]

It doesn't help that Chinese people (well, immigrant gen) believe the same thing. If anyone tries to make it "nicer," they accuse the management of trying too hard to attract western clientele into more "authentic" Chinese cuisine. My family has friends who HONESTLY believe that. They think the most "authentic" foods only come from hole-in-the-wall places catering to immigrants fresh off the plane (or not-so-fresh off the plane). Those places have better "wok-hay" (literal translation is wok-air - not sure exactly what it means other than flavour). "Classy" and Asian only applies to Japanese food. Even CBC/jooksing style food - restaurants owned and managed by CBCs/Chinese Canadians raised in Canada who have been influenced not only by their family's cuisine, but also other cuisines aren't "real" enough to them. Even my parents, who are quite sophisticated foodies - especially for 60-something Boomers - have kind of squashed at R&D and DaiLo's menu.

I can imagine some people might think that way, and it is very unfortunate, but honestly it is not 1985 and these people are stuck in a time capsule. The urban Chinese don't go to those hole-in-the-wall places any more. I go to Shanghai every year, and all the new restaurants are nicely decorated and food well presented. Of course there are still many old style places where you see greasy tables and cracked plates but they are increasing falling out of favour. So why should restaurants in North America continue functioning that way? If one visits the newly opened Chinese restaurants in Markham or Scarborough, they don't look like sh8t any more. Even those in Chinatown are getting better, with the old fashioned Cantonese style restaurants on rapid decline.

One thing I need to complain about Chinese restaurants is their bathrooms. Some nicely decorated restaurants could have downright disgusting toilets. The owners should really pay more attention to such details (well, it is not detail but rather important). The toilets really say a lot about how classy a restaurant really is, and in that respect Chinese restaurants still have a long way to go before being recognized as "classy".

In the end, it is never about the food itself. Chinese food on the world stage probably only has Italian and French to be its real peer - (Japanese food is hugely overrated IMO although I do like it), it is up for the restaurant owners to change its damaged image. For many Americans, Chinese food is still some take out fried noodles in a white paper box - which doesn't even exist in China.

 

[prosperegal]

I can imagine some people might think that way, and it is very unfortunate, but honestly it is not 1985 and these people are stuck in a time capsule. The urban Chinese don't go to those hole-in-the-wall places any more. I go to Shanghai every year, and all the new restaurants are nicely decorated and food well presented. Of course there are still many old style places where you see greasy tables and cracked plates but they are increasing falling out of favour. So why should restaurants in North America continue functioning that way? If one visits the newly opened Chinese restaurants in Markham or Scarborough, they don't look like sh8t any more. Even those in Chinatown are getting better, with the old fashioned Cantonese style restaurants on rapid decline.

One thing I need to complain about Chinese restaurants is their bathrooms. Some nicely decorated restaurants could have downright disgusting toilets. The owners should really pay more attention to such details (well, it is not detail but rather important). The toilets really say a lot about how classy a restaurant really is, and in that respect Chinese restaurants still have a long way to go before being recognized as "classy".

In the end, it is never about the food itself. Chinese food on the world stage probably only has Italian and French to be its real peer - (Japanese food is hugely overrated IMO although I do like it), it is up for the restaurant owners to change its damaged image. For many Americans, Chinese food is still some take out fried noodles in a white paper box - which doesn't even exist in China.

Well, those white paper boxes aren't used in Canada, either - save for Thai Express. We use Styrofoam or aluminum. And I think that's what they use in Hong Kong, too. What do they use in mainland China?

ETA: I don't think Italian food has the same kind of "classy" clout as, say, French. It's still more "down home"/nonna's home cooking and probably rates below Japanese. At least in my books.

 

[ksun]

Well, those white paper boxes aren't used in Canada, either - save for Thai Express. We use Styrofoam or aluminum. And I think that's what they use in Hong Kong, too. What do they use in mainland China?

ETA: I don't think Italian food has the same kind of "classy" clout as, say, French. It's still more "down home"/nonna's home cooking and probably rates below Japanese. At least in my books.

Styrofoam boxes too in China.

I agree with your judgment about Italian food - there are definitely more home-style and budget friendlier Italian restaurants than French and Japanese in North America. Regarding Japanese regular restaurants are not expensive at all in Tokyo, similar to the price of a burger combo here in Toronto. It is the few high end ones make give people the classy impression. As I analyzed before, Japan is very good at creating a "high end" image, a lot of the stories/culture are more marketing tactics and apparently it has been extremely successful in western countries.

 

[prosperegal]

Styrofoam boxes too in China.

I agree with your judgment about Italian food - there are definitely more home-style and budget friendlier Italian restaurants than French and Japanese in North America. Regarding Japanese regular restaurants are not expensive at all in Tokyo, similar to the price of a burger combo here in Toronto. It is the few high end ones make give people the classy impression. As I analyzed before, Japan is very good at creating a "high end" image, a lot of the stories/culture are more marketing tactics and apparently it has been extremely successful in western countries.

I just wish more Chinese places used cardboard cartons - you know, like the ones at supermarket salad bars (not just Whole Foods)! Anyway, I would say you can get excellent FRENCH food much cheaper in France than in Canada as well. It's always cheaper in the REAL country!

 

[gabe]

I just wish more Chinese places used cardboard cartons - you know, like the ones at supermarket salad bars (not just Whole Foods)! Anyway, I would say you can get excellent FRENCH food much cheaper in France than in Canada as well. It's always cheaper in the REAL country!

Agreed. Cardboard cartons keep the heat in. Styrofoam isn't eco-friendly and it's not a good for keeping food warm. Most of my take out places use either cardboard, aluminum, or plastic containers. All my years of ordering take out, i have never seen paper boxes. Not sure what Ksun is talking about.

 

[calimehtar]

I have been to at least one place in Markham that is classy, I think it's this one (or close enough)
https://www.yelp.ca/biz/spring-villa-chinese-cuisine-markham

That said I haven't been to or heard any Chinese restaurant that reached the level of decadence of Susur, America, Bymark, etc. This one in Markham was nice but still affordable and the service was pretty ordinary. There must be high-end restaurants like it in China if not in Toronto, but paying $100 for a plate seems to be more common in the western world than in China... no idea why.