Cashless Toronto

[Jonny5]

I couldn't find a central thread for this yet, but I thought it would be something of interest. Toronto is increasingly going cashless. Business are demanding that only cards be used for payment, which in Canada is completely legal despite some lingering disbelief out there, but it's true that any business can reject cash for any reason, or for no reason, and they do not need any signage saying that in advance. It has always been that way despite many truly believing the contrary.

I first noticed this was something that started before the pandemic, down in the PATH foodcourts, but now it has significantly increased this year and many more businesses out there reject cash for purchases over a certain limit.

I thought to post this after reading an article about a new phenomenon which has arisen called reverse ATM's. And while the article is US-centric, it opens up with the Rogers Centre and the Blue Jays team shop which no longer accepts cash, but it does now have a "reverse ATM" where you can input cash and it will give you a gift card in return. The article dives into how this allows stores to flout City bylaws that insist retailers have a cash option to be available to patrons, thought the legality of such bylaws is dubious, but it could put customers in the position of having a leftover balance on the card they never use..

https://www.axios.com/2023/04/24/reverse-atms-banking-cashless-payments

We appear ahead of the US and the UK on this, though behind much of the rest of Europe where cash has largely vanished.
I read somewhere I can't find now that in the Nordic countries over 99% of transactions are now done by cards and most physical bank branches remaining don't even deal with cash, they exist now only to process applications for accounts, loans, and mortgages only.

 

[Bayer]

I couldn't find a central thread for this yet, but I thought it would be something of interest. Toronto is increasingly going cashless. Business are demanding that only cards be used for payment, which in Canada is completely legal despite some lingering disbelief out there, but it's true that any business can reject cash for any reason, or for no reason, and they do not need any signage saying that in advance. It has always been that way despite many truly believing the contrary.

I first noticed this was something that started before the pandemic, down in the PATH foodcourts, but now it has significantly increased this year and many more businesses out there reject cash for purchases over a certain limit.

I thought to post this after reading an article about a new phenomenon which has arisen called reverse ATM's. And while the article is US-centric, it opens up with the Rogers Centre and the Blue Jays team shop which no longer accepts cash, but it does now have a "reverse ATM" where you can input cash and it will give you a gift card in return. The article dives into how this allows stores to flout City bylaws that insist retailers have a cash option to be available to patrons, thought the legality of such bylaws is dubious, but it could put customers in the position of having a leftover balance on the card they never use..

https://www.axios.com/2023/04/24/reverse-atms-banking-cashless-payments

We appear ahead of the US and the UK on this, though behind much of the rest of Europe where cash has largely vanished.
I read somewhere I can't find now that in the Nordic countries over 99% of transactions are now done by cards and most physical bank branches remaining don't even deal with cash, they exist now only to process applications for accounts, loans, and mortgages only.

This concept of a "reverse ATM" really made me laugh my head off. They still end up with cash that they have to process! Not that I am using cash at all - two years ago, I withdrew $40 at a (real) ATM and I still have a $10 bill somewhere. I don't use the physical cards either (although I carry them just in case); everything is in my phone.

 

[gabe]

The outage at Rogers that disabled debit transactions last year is the reason why cash will always be king. I always carry cash on me. These debit systems go down too much in this country. Last week at a Subway the debit was down, cash only. Not sure why any business would go cashless? They could lose a lot of money on sales when debit machines go down. Unless they install one of those reverse ATM machines like Canada's Wonderland and Blue Jays store.

 

[Jonny5]

This concept of a "reverse ATM" really made me laugh my head off. They still end up with cash that they have to process!

I believe the deal with these reverse ATMs is they are leased from a company that will also do all the cash collection and processing. Once the cash goes in that thing they own that cash and not the retailer.
I suspect the idea is eventually to have lots of these around downtown so every night the armoured truck goes out and picks up all the cash and then they go to deposit it themselves in their own single bank account.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm often curious about a cashless future in a retail store where the product has already been consumed, like a restaurant. 'Sorry, I didn't see the sign. Shall I barf up my lunch?'

All of these 'convenience' services have a cost that is ultimately paid by the consumer. At least with cash, all they have to do is add it up, do a deposit slip and drop it at the bank. Sure, there is a business cost, but nothing like line, terminal and per-transaction charges. I deal mostly in small town Ontario. My former barber only took cash and my independent garage only got a POS terminal a couple of years ago. If the business is rural, poor line speed/quality can much up the terminals. I realize not a city issue.

The power outage argument has some merit, but most of sales systems won't work w/o power and I question how many staffers these days can give change without the machine telling them how much.

Like everybody else, I got deeply into cashless during Covid but am actively trying to move back, particularly with smaller purchases. I find it is too much trouble to reconcile my accounts with dozens and dozens of little transactions.

 

[Hairball]

I'm often curious about a cashless future in a retail store where the product has already been consumed, like a restaurant. 'Sorry, I didn't see the sign. Shall I barf up my lunch?'

Well, cash is "legal tender" which is meant to pay off debts. So you consumed some product that you owe, I think they're obligated to accept cash to settle debt even if they didn't want to. But I don't know the nuances of this too well.

About legal tender

Find out what “legal tender” means, why legal tender status changes, and how to redeem older bank notes.

www.bankofcanada.ca

 

[RGB_11]

EQ bank is leading the way by saying if you want cash instead of paying with the EQ card, there is no charge at all to take money out of ANY ATM or bank machine. (even the independent ones)
SO
This means EQ has covered all the bases. Cash or tap to pay? Choice is yours!
I like this because sometimes restaurants and other businesses offer a discount for paying cash.
Other times, it is nice to just tap.

 

[GreenCyclist]

Society has not thought this through. My teenage son has suffered loss of rights through this decision made by major businesses to go this route. He does not have a cellphone with data and his bank account is for savings. He has a cash allowance and recently went to a movie with his friend whereby there was no option to use cash to buy a ticket. Yesterday, he and some friends went to a Jays game where tickets for entry are by device only...only 1 friend has a device with data AND all vendors are cashless. They got into the event by using that one phone with my Ticketmaster account programmed (I had helped by using my credit card to buy them the tickets... which means ticket buying is inaccessible to them without help). Once in the stadium, they found they couldn't buy snacks with their cash. I think teens should have access to activities in society where they won't get into trouble....why is society blocking them?!?!

 

[afransen]

Society has not thought this through. My teenage son has suffered loss of rights through this decision made by major businesses to go this route. He does not have a cellphone with data and his bank account is for savings. He has a cash allowance and recently went to a movie with his friend whereby there was no option to use cash to buy a ticket. Yesterday, he and some friends went to a Jays game where tickets for entry are by device only...only 1 friend has a device with data AND all vendors are cashless. They got into the event by using that one phone with my Ticketmaster account programmed (I had helped by using my credit card to buy them the tickets... which means ticket buying is inaccessible to them without help). Once in the stadium, they found they couldn't buy snacks with their cash. I think teens should have access to activities in society where they won't get into trouble....why is society blocking them?!?!

Seems quite solvable with a debit card, or a prepaid credit card. Many venues also have wifi, so one could even get a phone without cellular service (if the data plan is the barrier).

 

[Towered]

Society has not thought this through. My teenage son has suffered loss of rights through this decision made by major businesses to go this route. He does not have a cellphone with data and his bank account is for savings. He has a cash allowance and recently went to a movie with his friend whereby there was no option to use cash to buy a ticket. Yesterday, he and some friends went to a Jays game where tickets for entry are by device only...only 1 friend has a device with data AND all vendors are cashless. They got into the event by using that one phone with my Ticketmaster account programmed (I had helped by using my credit card to buy them the tickets... which means ticket buying is inaccessible to them without help). Once in the stadium, they found they couldn't buy snacks with their cash. I think teens should have access to activities in society where they won't get into trouble....why is society blocking them?!?!

Sounds like someone else is blocking them...

 

[SubHuman]

A year ago in the CNE Food Building I noticed some people getting stuck at some of the vendors who were only accepting cash. At the Kingsway street festival this weekend, some were accepting only cash, others not accepting cash at all.

... am actively trying to move back, particularly with smaller purchases. I find it is too much trouble to reconcile my accounts with dozens and dozens of little transactions.

Me too, but the problem now is that sometimes the young people employed at checkouts have grown up never handling cash and have trouble counting change. I sometimes get a look I think implies something like "Oh no gramps, you're not really going to pay with coins, are you?"
I bought one thing that came to $2.49, gave a guy a twonie and two quarters, and he said I still owed him ten cents, I assume because he thought a quarter was only worth 20 cents?

 

[afransen]

If you find it too difficult to reconcile many small cash transactions, rather than use cash one could a separate 'petty cash' debit card that you top up periodically. I fail to see how this should be more complex than taking out cash.

 

[T3G]

I sometimes get a look I think implies something like "Oh no gramps, you're not really going to pay with coins, are you?"

Personally, as a cashier, I don't object to people paying with cash, but there are certain cash behaviours I find irritating, like paying for larger amounts in small coins (takes forever to count) (bonus points if they come to the self check out and want to do this) or people who find more change after I've already keyed the total in and want to give it to me. I find this to be horribly irksome, math has never been my strong suit and having to reconcile whatever the computer says I owe the customer in change is a huge pet peeve.

Part of my job involves feeding all the tills into a money counting machine after we close up, and the way many people behave towards cash drives me insane. Making origami out of dollar bills is a very common thing people do, and on average, at least once a week it causes a problem with the machine, and at least once a month it causes the whole machine to seize up because the creases got caught on something they shouldn';t have, and we have to find where in the machine the bill got stuck. I don't know what's wrong with everybody, like buying a wallet and keeping your bills crisp and straightened out is such an imposition.

 

[SubHuman]

... (bonus points if they come to the self check out and want to do this) ...

Metro and most (but not all) Dollaramas are the only places I've seen that have self-checkouts accepting cash. But often, particularly with Dollarama, I go to pay (for example) $5.35 and have only one quarter and one dime, and it rejects one of them after I've already put my only $5 bill into it. So I then have to feed it a $20 bill, and it of course gives me back a ridiculously large handful of mostly coins for the change.

 

[lenaitch]

Me too, but the problem now is that sometimes the young people employed at checkouts have grown up never handling cash and have trouble counting change. I sometimes get a look I think implies something like "Oh no gramps, you're not really going to pay with coins, are you?"
I bought one thing that came to $2.49, gave a guy a twonie and two quarters, and he said I still owed him ten cents, I assume because he thought a quarter was only worth 20 cents?

I can't remember the last time somebody counted my change back to me - it has to be years. The change I get is what the register tells them to give, but, ya, if they keyed in a quarter as 20 cents, there is little hope.

If you find it too difficult to reconcile many small cash transactions, rather than use cash one could a separate 'petty cash' debit card that you top up periodically. I fail to see how this should be more complex than taking out cash.

I don't find it "difficult", I said it was too much trouble. Pulling a wad of small receipts out of my pocket to reconcile is not on my fun list. I realize keeping account records and performing a month-end or whenever reconciliation isn't something everyone does anymore; I don't like surprises. A 'petty cash card' is a decent idea, just a direction I don't want to go in. I have one basic services/low interest credit card and one debit card and like to keep it that way.