Candidates and their subway plans... The Star tells you which one is more credible

[Fresh Start]

Objection noted.

The SELRT is going to be a major success, whetever people like it or not. Is it really worth spending energy trying to stop something that will be built?

Typical leftist thinking: my way or the highway.

 

[Justin10000]

Last I checked, Sheppard East looks nothing like downtown Ottawa. I am willing to bet real money that curbside bus lanes combined with articulated buses could easily handle 2000 pphpd. It's one bus every 3 minutes or more. Even on that simpleton's graphic the TTC uses, 2000 pphpd falls within the Bus/BRT category. The TTC even suggests that 2000 pphpd is possible in mixed traffic. So I don't know how you can dispute how much it can handle.

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2008_04-15-17_boards.pdf

See pg. 16. The TTC happens to think that BRT can handle up to 5000 pphpd.

So who's lying? You or the TTC?

Bus lanes will address demand up to around 2,000pph. Demand on Sheppard east of Don Mills is around 3,000. Your assumption is overly simple.

Post #80

When did I say bus lanes could not handle 2,000pph? The TTC also says you need passing lanes, and more infrastructure with BRT for capacity above 2,000.

You, and Gweed do this all the time. You try to twist people's words to suit your argument. It's kind of sleazy.

 

[Fresh Start]

Until the pavement starts to wear, and potholes appear. The improved ride quality will not last long. Not to mentions buses travelling over the curbside drains. Still a fairly bumpy ride.

The last subway stop on Sheppard is Don Mills. Why you are even including Warden,and Kennedy stations, I have no idea. The demand east of Don Mills Station on Sheppard is projected to peak at 3,000pph. Higher than what bus lanes(without passing lanes) can achieve.

$1 Billion will not build bus lanes on all those arterials. Not by a long shot.

Yes, lets build mutlibillion dollar light rail schemes because of the discomfort one feels when riding on a bus (though unless one's lucky enough to live, work/school and recreate all along the same corridor they're probably transferring onto a bus anyway).

The TTC's own stats show that BRT is a suitable node up to 5000 PPHPD. Countless cities around the world do higher than 10,000 PPHPD. A standard arterial width in Toronto (outside the old City of Toronto and parts of York) is 36 metres. These are typically accompanied by 10 metres of public space (sidewalks, lawnage). Say 2 metres of lawnage were taken out on each side of the roadway, there's be more than ample room for 2 dedicated bus lanes in a road-median ROW, a dedicated passing lane, platform waiting area and 4 multi-purpose lanes. It's a complete farce that the TTC thinks only railed vehicles can be ran in a ROW. Expropriation would be minimal, and whatever utilities relocation one would do for light-rail could be done for buses.

If ridership growth really matters to the TTC, they'd be pursuing BRT down Sheppard East, which even in a post Sheppard subway expansion context, would STILL be of value. But the massive cost savings (approximately $300 million @$20 million/km vs. $1.1 billion for SELRT) ensures that more can be built elsewhere where ridership demand for far heavier and alleviation for more needed.

 

[Fresh Start]

Post #80

When did I say bus lanes could not handle 2,000pph? The TTC also says you need passing lanes, and more infrastructure with BRT for capacity above 2,000.

You, and Gweed do this all the time. You try to twist people's words to suit your argument. It's kind of sleazy.

In the case of an already existing bus network, building and maintaining a LRT is more expensive than building a BRT, as the latter one can share the resources (bus drivers, depots, busses, maintenance staff) with the existing bus network. So the only additional costs are building the extra lanes. Of course if certain BRT lines with already very high frequency are overcrowded, then replacing them with LRT would be logical, but that's hardly the case along Sheppard East.

 

[MindMe]

Yes, lets build mutlibillion dollar light rail schemes because of the discomfort one feels when riding on a bus (though unless one's lucky enough to live, work/school and recreate all along the same corridor they're probably transferring onto a bus anyway).

But that's just it. People don't like the bus and will choose a car over the bus if possible.

 

[kEiThZ]

The TTC also says you need passing lanes, and more infrastructure with BRT for capacity above 2,000.

Above 2000. I am willing to bet that you don't get above 2000 east of Agincourt.

The fact that they only hit 3000 after going all the way to Don Mills should tell you something. The Don Mills to Kennedy stretch is significantly more dense than say McCowan to Meadowvale (with virtually nothing on the street from Neilson to Morningside for example...you really should look at this stretch on Streetview).

So after combining both sections they only got 3000pph? That's what tells me that we'd be better off with a short subway extension and nothing east of that. If they can get the subway to Agincourt, they won't even need bus lanes east of that (though they'd be a nice bonus).

You, and Gweed do this all the time. You try to twist people's words to suit your argument. It's kind of sleazy.

Right. And you're innocent as a little lamb. If I missed your earlier posts I am sorry. But I caught the fact that you were disputing capacity with gweed in the last page and responded to it. Hardly malicious on my part. And please don't tell me you don't get some glee from catching our errors.

 

[kEiThZ]

But that's just it. People don't like the bus and will choose a car over the bus if possible.

And if the LRT takes too long, they'll still take the car.

People are seriously delusional if they think that speed and time don't matter to commuters . And that they'll pass on their own time just because they are riding on rails.

The biggest advantage of rails has normally been speed not comfort. People like trains because they are fast. If this LRT doesn't provide a significant bump in speed, then most riders will consider it to be on par with a streetcar. They won't divert from other corridors. And they won't give up their cars.

People who don't live in northern Scarborough just don't seem to get this. They don't understand how important speed is when you live at the fringe of the city, where the differences in travel time between transit and the car are absolutely huge. And the only way to make a real dent here is to extend the subway network further into Scarborough.

Good to see that there are candidates who get this though. Sheppard may be a given. But I am glad Smitherman's taking a stand on the SRT.

 

[Fresh Start]

But that's just it. People don't like the bus and will choose a car over the bus if possible.

Rubbish. The TTC's annual ridership is going up and a lot of that's due to improved bus service (note: the 70 second headways along Finch East). Over 80% of all TTC customers use the bus network. When both the subway and streetcars break down we always revert back to tried and tested buses as our salvation. We did so along St Clair W these past couple years using replacement buses and the headways dramatically improved.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The fact you believe a simple bus lane can carry more than 2,000pph shows just how much you know, and how biased you are.

I guess they're biased towards reality. Take a route like Finch East: it moves more than 2000 per hour with no bus lanes, and quite well, I might add. This is without a few queue jumps (let alone a full 'simple' bus lane), without a real Rocket option like the 190, without POP or some kind of new fare system that doesn't result in drivers arguing with consecutive kids who didn't show their student card before paying or consecutive people fishing for coins in their purse or 20 people asking for transfers, without the articulated buses it used to run, etc.

 

[Justin10000]

Any pavement deteriorates with time. But for the same road condition, bus-only lane is somewhat more comfortable than mixed-traffic bus.

In my view, speed is extremely important for transit. Time that I spent on slow transit is time that I could have spent doing something more useful. I do not understand how can people deny that.
Having to commute more than 1 hour each way (2 hours per day) really cuts into your schedule if you have a family and a lot of stuff to do; and makes transit unattractive even for people who would rather not drive.

I do not believe in slow transit. But I do not believe in building a system that focuses solely on speed. A rider is not going to complain about spending 4-5 minutes extra on a vehcile, if it means there is a stop closer to their destination. What do you think people want more: to wait for a infrequent paralell service bus, or the chance to be able to walk home, or to their destination? I'll bet walking.
The steady increase in transit ridership seems to be an indication people are not putting as much emphasis on speed as you think. There needs to be a compromise between speed, accessibility,and convenience. If spending 1 hour on Transit is cutting into your time, than you should honestly invest in a car. It's not right to attempt to cater a small number of long distance riders, at the sacrfice of local, and short-distance riders.

Obviously, people who live near that stop benefit from the stop being added. People who travel by, would likely prefer express ride, but were not asked.

Why should they be asked? They did not request stops to be removed, did they? The point is, people place greater emphasis on conveniene, and accessibilty to a stop, than speed. Even if they got a stop faster, that time savings ls lost due to a longer walk, longer dwell times(more riders at fewer stops).

Either build stations no more than 1 km apart, or use a local bus.

Then the cost increases dramatically. Again, back to the question: Why not just built LRT in surface ROW?

The transfer exists already, no new transfers would be forced. The speed would improve: Warden to Don Mills by bus is 12 - 15 min, by subway it would be 5 - 7 min; and that would help much more people than SELRT.

The speed will also improve with the SELRT, since the LRT will be underground to Consumers Rd, and in Surface ROW eat of Consumers Road. Obviously it will not be as fast as a subway, but it does not have to be. Riders are not going to be concerned about spending a few extra minutes on a vehicle. I do agree with Electrify on thing: If you want significant time savings, the station spacings are going to have to be quite wide.

How else can you travel a large distance within 416 in a reasonable time? Either subway, or fully grade-separate LRT, or GO trains; but the latter do not travel everywhere, and in many corridors, no suitable tracks exist.

How about GO bus? The GO bus travels from STC to York Mills/ Yorkdale, and You can get to York U from STC using the 407 express. This is the role of GO transit, and GO should be petitioned to improve their role in the 416, and provide better service for long distance travellers. You do not need a subway to travel long distances.

There exists a number of routes in 416 where LRT is a right solution, Finch West being one of them. For Sheppard East, LRT is not the optimal solution.

That's fine. I do not think extending the Sheppard Subway is an optimal solution either.I think the SELRT will work just fine.We have our own opinions on what we think works,and I can live with that.

The best investment in transit is the one that provides greatest benefit to greatest number of riders. The northern Scarborough is remote and somewhat isolated geographically from the rest of Toronto. The extension of Sheppard subway would help many people living there to travel to other places in the city. In contrast, SELRT will help smaller number of people (living near Sheppard).

And a 1.1 Billion 14km surface rail line is not going to benefit riders? I do not believe for a second. The SELRT is still going to provide a faster trip than the bus, and riders on intersecting routes can still transfer to the line. It's benefiting a large number of riders at a cost that is affordable. In essence, the SELRT will do what you claim a Sheppard Subway can do but at price we can afford. Again, you are focusing totally on speed. If you think riders will take a bus to a subway, those same riders will take a bus to a surface rail line.

SELRT will be the best solution only if it is both origin and destination for the majority of its riders. I don't think this is the case. Jobs do not concentrate around Sheppard, they are either in downtown or scattered all over the city. Even if there is significant job creation along SELRT, not everybody can live close to work; think for example about families with two bread-winners whose jobs are far apart.

A subway is not going to help those unlucky enough to live from work. If anything attention should be focused on making sure GO provides all day service on the Stouffville line, along with fare integration, so riders have an even quicker ride downtown whose fare is on par, or least only a bit more expensive than the TTC. As I stated before, GO does provide East-West service on it's GO bus routes. Regional long distance travel is the role of GO.

On that point, I have to agree with you. The risk of canceling SELRT and getting nothing in exchange overweights the fact that SELRT is not the optimal investment for this corridor.
At this point, better SELRT than nothing.

Try to make the most of it. I am not a big fan of the Subway to York Region(Should have stopped at Steeles), but it's going to be built, and chances are, I am going to use it when I visit the parents in Brampton.

 

[gweed123]

Perhaps you think that it wasn't worthy of LRT ... but there are even some people out here who look at the relatively low ridership, and actually have the gall to suggest that it should be subway!

The corridor from Don Mills to Morningside is really two distinct corridors in my mind: Don Mills to Agincourt, and Agincourt to Morningside. One, with some densification and infilling, could easily support a subway. The other, well curbside BRT would be overkill. Averaging them out to an in-median LRT is not the way to go.

A little underdone ... but I'd think Ottawa-style BRT wouldn't actually fit in the alignments being studied, as the roadways are so wide, and the stations are very wide.

I was referring to the section in the core and along Woodroffe, both of which use curbside lanes. There are no passing lanes, large stations, etc. If the alignment can fit in-median LRT, it can fit curbside BRT. Pretty simple to figure out.

 

[gweed123]

Who cares. You guys have been shown to provide misleading assumptions in the past, and you love to insult others, but get offended if anyone calls you out.
The fact you believe a simple bus lane can carry more than 2,000pph shows just how much you know, and how biased you are.

I quoted you a damn source saying that it COULD handle well over 2,000pph! How biased are you that you're ignoring the facts in black and white?! The peak Transitway ridership is 10,500pphpd, and that peak ridership occurs through the core, which is curbside lanes. Ergo, curbside lanes can handle somewhere around 8,000pphpd comfortably. The fact that you're insisting that it's only 2000pph, despite my showing you that you're wrong, well you can finish that thought yourself...

 

[gweed123]

Last I checked, Sheppard East looks nothing like downtown Ottawa. I am willing to bet real money that curbside bus lanes combined with articulated buses could easily handle 2000 pphpd. It's one bus every 3 minutes or more. Even on that simpleton's graphic the TTC uses, 2000 pphpd falls within the Bus/BRT category. The TTC even suggests that 2000 pphpd is possible in mixed traffic. So I don't know how you can dispute how much it can handle.

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2008_04-15-17_boards.pdf

See pg. 16. The TTC happens to think that BRT can handle up to 5000 pphpd.

So who's lying? You or the TTC?

So that's 2 sources proving that he's dead wrong. Will he still try and debate it? Let's find out...

 

[gweed123]

Typical leftist thinking: my way or the highway.

I would rebuttle that with 1 name: Mike Harris... aka the guy who f'ed over transit expansion in this province for at least a decade. It's not left or right. I'm left wing, and I support subway expansion.

 

[gweed123]

Post #80

When did I say bus lanes could not handle 2,000pph? The TTC also says you need passing lanes, and more infrastructure with BRT for capacity above 2,000.

You, and Gweed do this all the time. You try to twist people's words to suit your argument. It's kind of sleazy.

Go visit Woodroffe Ave between Algonquin College and Hunt Club, then tell me it can only handle 2000 pph. That section does 5,000pph during peak, easily, without any passing lanes and limited signal priority.

And I didn't twist anything. You made a statement, I rebuttled it and proved that you were wrong.