Brampton Transit/Zum

[TOareaFan]

^ By "greater levels" are you referring to capital as opposed to operating?

yes....but that is the point....it is not about how much you spend but how well you spend.

There is nothing really sexy about the amount of money Brampton has spent on Transit.....but by making the investments in buses and drivers they can offer the sort of frequencies that drive ridership.

 

[Sandpit]

because other municipalities don't want to spend the money that Brampton did to get that sort of ridership.

Burlington did recently hire the person who lead the Brampton ridership growth strategy though, so perhaps we will see something similar there.

I wonder whether the fact that they are a conventional transit-only agency plays a role. Unlike most other municipal transit agencies, they (and MiWay) don't have to run any paratransit services, because that is taken care of by another agency. Maybe it's time to take Wheel-Trans, Mobility Plus etc. off the hands of transit agencies and have them run by a dedicated agency.

 

[TOareaFan]

I wonder whether the fact that they are a conventional transit-only agency plays a role. Unlike most other municipal transit agencies, they (and MiWay) don't have to run any paratransit services, because that is taken care of by another agency. Maybe it's time to take Wheel-Trans, Mobility Plus etc. off the hands of transit agencies and have them run by a dedicated agency.

I don't understand why you think this is why this impacts how many people ride the bus in Brampton?

 

[Sandpit]

I don't understand why you think this is why this impacts how many people ride the bus in Brampton?

Focusing of resources.

 

[TOareaFan]

Focusing of resources.

still not getting it but my mind may just be foggy from my mini-vacation

 

[Sandpit]

still not getting it but my mind may just be foggy from my mini-vacation

Let's say the TTC has a budget of $100. $90 goes to conventional transit, $10 goes to Wheel-Trans. Take Wheel-Trans off of the TTC's hands while keeping funding levels the same, and the TTC now has $100 to spend on conventional transit. They would probably save on administrative costs too.

 

[TOareaFan]

Let's say the TTC has a budget of $100. $90 goes to conventional transit, $10 goes to Wheel-Trans. Take Wheel-Trans off of the TTC's hands while keeping funding levels the same, and the TTC now has $100 to spend on conventional transit. They would probably save on administrative costs too.

The only difference in Peel is if the budget for Transit is $100 then BT gets $90 because there is a need to fund a separate body for wheel trans.

Having separate agencies doesn't just magically increase the amount of money.

 

[rbt]

Let's say the TTC has a budget of $100. $90 goes to conventional transit, $10 goes to Wheel-Trans. Take Wheel-Trans off of the TTC's hands while keeping funding levels the same, and the TTC now has $100 to spend on conventional transit. They would probably save on administrative costs too.

If you keep funding levels the same, TTC now get $90 and $10 goes toward the new organization.

Of course, that new organization has higher overhead than the old TTC (separate accounting, separate legal, separate board, separate administration, etc.) and now provides less service for the same cost to the city.

If you want to increase property taxes to fund the TTC, then do so; restructuring doesn't magically create additional city revenue.

 

[Sandpit]

The only difference in Peel is if the budget for Transit is $100 then BT gets $90 because there is a need to fund a separate body for wheel trans.

Having separate agencies doesn't just magically increase the amount of money.

In Brampton it does, because conventional transit (BT) is run by the city, while paratransit (TransHelp) is run by Peel Region.

If you keep funding levels the same, TTC now get $90 and $10 goes toward the new organization.

Of course, that new organization has higher overhead than the old TTC (separate accounting, separate legal, separate board, separate administration, etc.) and now provides less service for the same cost to the city.

If you want to increase property taxes to fund the TTC, then do so; restructuring doesn't magically create additional city revenue.

My idea is to merge all GTA paratransit (Wheel-Trans, Mobility Plus, TransHelp etc.) and have it run/funded by the Ministry of Seniors and Accessibility (or Children, Community and Social Services). Merging all conventional transit (as some propose) would probably be too unwieldy, but I think it's doable with paratransit.

 

[TOareaFan]

In Brampton it does, because conventional transit (BT) is run by the city, while paratransit (TransHelp) is run by Peel Region.

this is one place where that tired old saying "there is only one taxpayer" is actually applicable. If providing TransHelp type service in Brampton costs $10......then that $10 coming out of the pocket of Brampton taxpayers would still get notionally deducted from total $100 (carrying on with your example) available for overall transit. No, changing who provides the service does not magically create money.

 

[Sandpit]

this is one place where that tired old saying "there is only one taxpayer" is actually applicable. If providing TransHelp type service in Brampton costs $10......then that $10 coming out of the pocket of Brampton taxpayers would still get notionally deducted from total $100 (carrying on with your example) available for overall transit. No, changing who provides the service does not magically create money.

If you upload it to the Province (as I suggest in the second part of my reply), it would free up room in municipal budgets. But it would also, of course, increase the Province's spending (and thus the deficit), meaning that it's probably not gonna happen with this government.

 

[TOareaFan]

If you upload it to the Province (as I suggest in the second part of my reply), it would free up room in municipal budgets. But it would also, of course, increase the Province's spending (and thus the deficit), meaning that it's probably not gonna happen with this government.

who funds the province?

you are not creating new money by shifting the costs of things to different levels of government funded by the same taxpayer(s).

 

[doady]

Why aren't the other transit agencies copying Brampton?

If you take population growth into account, Brampton's transit ridership growth hasn't been that different from Mississauga, Toronto, Waterloo, London, Kingston, and other Ontario municipalities. For example, from 2003 to 2014, before the LRT construction began, the ridership of Waterloo Region increased from 29 to 49 per capita. Brampton went from 22 to 36 riders per capita during that same period.

From 2003 to 2017, Brampton's transit ridership increased from 22 to 45 per capita, Mississauga 38 to 51, London from 50 to 60, Kingston from 25 to 35.

because other municipalities don't want to spend the money that Brampton did to get that sort of ridership.

Brampton spends around $100 per capita annually on transit operations, the same as Mississauga and York Region. Brampton Transit net operating budget is around $70 million annually, MiWay $80 million, YRT $110 million.

I think if anything York Region was the most aggressive adding transit service. The introduction of VIVA was like 40% service increase in one year. But the ridership never materialized. York Region spends 40% more on transit operations than Mississauga but Mississauga has 15% more transit service (1.3 million service hours annually for YRT vs. 1.5 million for MiWay). Sometimes lack of spending is not the problem.

 

[Adjei]

Anecdotal evidence but I think Brampton has more residents who are likely to use public transit and not drive while York Region is more expensive and more people are driving and hence likely to use public transit. These are just observations I have made from driving and using public transit in both Brampton and Vaughan areas.

 

[Sandpit]

If you take population growth into account, Brampton's transit ridership growth hasn't been that different from Mississauga, Toronto, Waterloo, London, Kingston, and other Ontario municipalities. For example, from 2003 to 2014, before the LRT construction began, the ridership of Waterloo Region increased from 29 to 49 per capita. Brampton went from 22 to 36 riders per capita during that same period.

From 2003 to 2017, Brampton's transit ridership increased from 22 to 45 per capita, Mississauga 38 to 51, London from 50 to 60, Kingston from 25 to 35.



Brampton spends around $100 per capita annually on transit operations, the same as Mississauga and York Region. Brampton Transit net operating budget is around $70 million annually, MiWay $80 million, YRT $110 million.

I think if anything York Region was the most aggressive adding transit service. The introduction of VIVA was like 40% service increase in one year. But the ridership never materialized. York Region spends 40% more on transit operations than Mississauga but Mississauga has 15% more transit service (1.3 million service hours annually for YRT vs. 1.5 million for MiWay). Sometimes lack of spending is not the problem.

For YRT, I think the high fares are a big problem. They need to postpone the fare increase scheduled to take effect this July 1 to 2021 (in other words, freeze fares at 2018 levels for two years). Ideally, I would say they need to reduce fares to match Brampton Transit, but that's not gonna happen.