ACT7
Active Member
Hazelton Lanes, yes, but last I checked most of the Yorkville Ave spaces have been leased already.
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Hazelton Lanes, yes, but last I checked most of the Yorkville Ave spaces have been leased already.
ACT7
Active Member
Not Yorkville news but Mulberry is opening in Yorkdale.
http://app.toronto.ca/ApplicationStatus/details.do?folderRsn=3282769
http://app.toronto.ca/ApplicationStatus/details.do?folderRsn=3282769
vatche
Senior Member
Darn!!!! And here I was hoping they would land on bloor....
ACT7
Active Member
They may still eventually open a Yorkville location but the space may not be there right now. The transition east of Yonge, north up Avenue Rd., and north up Bay St. will eventually happen. I have no doubt.
vatche
Senior Member
You're very optimistic ACT....
taal
Senior Member
+ 1 ...
I just think we over estimate the demand for high end retail in Toronto period.
I think the amount of retail space in Yorkville proper and what is the high end section of Bloor today does satisfy a lot of it. Particularly given the competition (and this is new), from Yorkdale ... which I see only intensifying over the years.
I still expect to see growth (in projects like 1 Bloor East and the like). But I honestly don't see it expanding east on Bloor for years to come (less 1 Bloor East).
Avenue road is already fairly high end. And Bay is Yorkville proper for the most part and projects like the Four Seasons (and the redevelopment of Cumberland Terrace ... if it ever happens) will provide most of the new space.
To be honest, I think 1 Bloor East will prove this ... what is there about 100K of retail ? Now its possible a department store will take up just about all of it no ? If that's not the case and were talking about 20 + stores. I think your going to see, its not going to get full of high end chains ... rather some revocations, and local chain expansions (and some new high end retail).
I just think we over estimate the demand for high end retail in Toronto period.
I think the amount of retail space in Yorkville proper and what is the high end section of Bloor today does satisfy a lot of it. Particularly given the competition (and this is new), from Yorkdale ... which I see only intensifying over the years.
I still expect to see growth (in projects like 1 Bloor East and the like). But I honestly don't see it expanding east on Bloor for years to come (less 1 Bloor East).
Avenue road is already fairly high end. And Bay is Yorkville proper for the most part and projects like the Four Seasons (and the redevelopment of Cumberland Terrace ... if it ever happens) will provide most of the new space.
To be honest, I think 1 Bloor East will prove this ... what is there about 100K of retail ? Now its possible a department store will take up just about all of it no ? If that's not the case and were talking about 20 + stores. I think your going to see, its not going to get full of high end chains ... rather some revocations, and local chain expansions (and some new high end retail).
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ACT7
Active Member
You're kind of all over the place with this post. I disagree with your first comment. Toronto is the 5th largest retail market in North America with high tourism (both international and domestic). High end retail is now only catching up to what it should have been for years, with much more to come. Canada in general has traditionally been ignored because of high labour costs as well as merchandising rights that are controlled by a handful (not even) of high end retailers like Holts or Harry Rosen. These retailers can often be the exclusive carrier of certain brands for X number of years.
pw20
Active Member
I disagree.
I think we as Torontonians sometimes overestimate our city. In terms of 5th largest retail market - I'd like to see that statistic?
As for tourism - again - Toronto is an important tourism destination - but I'm not sure we have high per capita tourism industry statistics at all. I couldn't find a list of top North American travel desintations, but as an example - Chicago received 38.11 visitors in 2011, who spent $11B. Toronto receives 10M visitors who spend $4.6B. Montreal receives almost 8M tourists who spent $2.27B.
My point is that Toronto is a tourism destination, but I don't know if tourism is really driving high spending in Toronto. Compared to Montreal and Chicago we are underweighted in terms of visitors (compared to our urban region size). Chicago is not 4 times the size of Toronto and Montreal is half the size of Toronto. (I should add that these are all tourism board stats and not apples to apples... but I hope it puts things in perspective).
Most importantly - Toronto features a small high-end retail market simply because of economics. Canadian discretionary spending has traditionally been significantly lower than Americans (lower incomes, higher taxes). Only recently has it matched Americans - according to this Colliers Report. I would personally caveat that report in that Colliers has a vested interest to pitch retail tenancy to American retailers but - I'll take their stats at face value. That being said the chart on page 3, which measures per capita retail spending, doesn't take into account basket of goods size. IE if our per capita spending is equal - it doesn't mean we get the same value for the same $1,000. (Goods in Canada typically cost more). My argument therefore in real terms is that Canadian spending has traditionally been significantly lower than Americans -this is compounded by price of goods (this won't be reflected in per capita spending figures). Finally, the old adage that Canadian malls are more productive than American malls (which is true) misses the other half of that argument: we have fewer malls.
I think Toronto is definitely seeing a high-end luxury boom, but I don't think Toronto's high-end luxury market will match the size of similar sized American urban centres.
vatche
Senior Member
I agree with pw20. Canadians in general are not into luxury goods as much as Europeans are. Americans have a lot more money and their taxes are less than ours by quite a huge margin. Besides, rich montrealers or torontonians go down to new York to shop. More variety, less expensive. Why not. As far as Chicago is concerned, it's a huge city with a pool of millions of people in the neighboring states. Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana .... Toronto does not get the high end tourist...it just doesn't....new York gets it, so does las vegas, Miami and Lon Angeles. So I don't think Toronto proper with its surrounding cities can afford a plethora of high end retail. We are still missing many, many brands in Toronto.....many...so even if they come at one point it will take a long, looong time!!! Where are the CD's, YSL, bottega venetta, Versace, Ralph lauren, Bruno cuccinelli, lanvin, Zegna, bulgari, longchamps, jimmy, Jill sanders, st johns. And on and on...
that's my 2 cents worth.
that's my 2 cents worth.
ACT7
Active Member
That's very misleading, what you just wrote. Toronto receives more international tourists than Chicago. Chicago's tourism is almost exclusively domestic. And Montreal's is almost exclusively from other parts of Quebec, so those comparisons are not accurate. Also, you're comparing Chicago's TOTAL tourism to Toronto's overnight tourism. Overall, including same day, Toronto receives closer to 20 million tourists.
Vatche, as for your comments, I'm not sure why you believe that Toronto doesn't receive high end tourists. How do you explain 5 luxury hotels going up in the span of 3 years? The fact that NYC, Vegas, Miami, etc receives high end tourism is not at the expense of Toronto. Chicagoland as it's measured, and the Golden Horseshoe are actually quite similar in size. And Wisconsin, Michigan, and Indiana??? You mean three of the poorest states in the U.S.?? And by the way, we do have ALL the brands you mentioned below, but not having the brick and mortar is not a reflection of low income. And woe is me...Chicago doesn't have a D&G, or Mulberry, or Porsche Design, and lots of other brands that exist here.
Everyone on these forums constantly goes into self-loathing mode when comparing Chicago and Toronto. Average income in Toronto is higher than Chicago, Illinois has about 20 billionaires, Ontario about 15. Hardly a HUGE difference.
I'll have to find where I read the stat that Toronto is the 5th largest retail market in North America. But I know I read it.
gabe
Senior Member
That's true but Chicago does have 6 high-end department stores all located right in middle of downtown.
Yeah but Illinois and the rest of the US has waaaay more shallow materialistic suburbanites than us!
ACT7
Active Member
That's true but Chicago does have 6 high-end department stores all located right in middle of downtown.
True, but we still have Holts, Harry Rosen, the Room at the Bay, and soon to have Nordstrom (and possibly Bloomingdales) all downtown. My point is that we have the brands, but space limitation is a huge factor in why we don't have the same number of free standing retail stores as some of our American counterparts.
Yeah but Illinois and the rest of the US has waaaay more shallow materialistic suburbanites than us!
True, but we still have Holts, Harry Rosen, the Room at the Bay, and soon to have Nordstrom (and possibly Bloomingdales) all downtown. My point is that we have the brands, but space limitation is a huge factor in why we don't have the same number of free standing retail stores as some of our American counterparts.
I'd also like to point out that Toronto has two Cartier stores (with a third rumoured to open at Sherway during their expansion). Chicago does not. Both cities have three Burberry stores with a fourth one opening in Toronto in the Sherway expansion. By some people's logic on this thread, this implies that Chicago can't support as many of those stores.
ardwold1
Active Member
I debate those 6 "high-end" department stores in Chicago. First of all, Saks Fifth Avenue has two separate stores for Men's and Women's merchandise, and so I don't think this qualifies as two separate department stores. The Nordstrom and Bloomingdale's stores sort of run the gamut of mid-high end, and I don't think it would be wrong to compare them to The Bay Queen Street. Barney's is nice (albeit small) but Neiman's is very dated and likewise, small. Also, let's not forget that there are many more American department stores than there are Canadian, and it is only recently that the high-end American department stores have been penetrating the Canadian market.
I think it is important to note that Toronto 's luxury market is growing at unprecedented rates- the amount of new luxury hotels being built, as ACT7 pointed out, is an indication of this. The amount of international luxury brands that have announced openings in Toronto is also an indication of this. The reason why we aren't seeing as many new stores in Yorkville is simply due to lack of space in the neighbourhood, given the number of luxury stores that have opened or will be opening in Yorkdale, certainly not due to lack of interest by the brands themselves, or hunger for luxury goods by consumers (whether they be domestic or foreign).
I think it is important to note that Toronto 's luxury market is growing at unprecedented rates- the amount of new luxury hotels being built, as ACT7 pointed out, is an indication of this. The amount of international luxury brands that have announced openings in Toronto is also an indication of this. The reason why we aren't seeing as many new stores in Yorkville is simply due to lack of space in the neighbourhood, given the number of luxury stores that have opened or will be opening in Yorkdale, certainly not due to lack of interest by the brands themselves, or hunger for luxury goods by consumers (whether they be domestic or foreign).
gabe
Senior Member
Nordstrom and Bloomingdale's are high-end stores more comparable to Holt's and The Bay downtwon (queen st location only) The other Bay stores are more comparable to Macy's and Lord & Taylor.
Chicago has 6 high-end Department stores. Two Bloomingdale's. One Saks store, Barney's , Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Mid level they have JC penny, two Macy's, Lord & Taylor, Kohl's, Sears,
Canada will never have the department stores like the US as we have only have 34 million people and the US has 315 million people
taal
Senior Member
See regarding intentional tourism ... I always wonder if this figure includes relatives visiting families ... I'm sure Toronto has more of this then just about anywhere in North America.
But in terms of spending, maybe due to the above its very low (i.e. relatives spend very little in comparison with those on vacation / to a certain degree business).
Regarding the high end hotels, do keep in mind there were essentially 0 high end hotels prior to this, so yes there was pent up demand but even with all the development, it probably doesn't put us close to Chicago in terms of the # of high end hotel rooms in the core.
But in terms of spending, maybe due to the above its very low (i.e. relatives spend very little in comparison with those on vacation / to a certain degree business).
Regarding the high end hotels, do keep in mind there were essentially 0 high end hotels prior to this, so yes there was pent up demand but even with all the development, it probably doesn't put us close to Chicago in terms of the # of high end hotel rooms in the core.