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Baby, we got a bubble!?

How many $500 (utilities included) rentals exist? Lets be honest here. I can easily find condos for much less than $1400 month if we're looking at bottom of the barrel stuff. Not a fair comparison IMO at all.

It's hard enough to even find a room for rent for $500 yet alone a 1 bedroom unit.

Lost in this whole renting vs buying discussion is some people don't mind living in a rooming house in the Annex for $500 month....while some people do. I sure as hell wouldn't live where your friend's living. $500/month is great but I would be miserable so what's the point? There's a standard of living that some people will pay a lot for while others will not. I can easily eat macn cheese every day and save a bunch of money. But why? It all boils down to what works for the individual.

i believe you completely misunderstood the post.
he did not live in a rooming house, nor was it just 1 room. it was a full floor of a house - 1 bedroom plus separate kitchen + living room + washroom.

Nor was I saying $550 inclusive for the full floor in the annex is the norm; however, I was citing how his example it did not make financial sense to buy vs. what he was paying and getting from renting.

it wasn't a dump nor was it "bling bling" like the new condos, but it was updated and liveable.
 
looks like the shell game party will continue with the lower of BOC interest rate by 0.25% to 0.75%.
 
looks like the shell game party will continue with the lower of BOC interest rate by 0.25% to 0.75%.

I would like wise guys on this thread to give their thoughts on the economic conditions as they are today and as theyare expected to be in the future.

Inflation rate could dip to zero or even in the negative (early depression)

Economy in Alberta has already taken a dive and province could go into recession

Decline in economic activity (drilling) will have effect in other provinces, including Ontario. Some of the purchases related to oil drilling were being purchased from Ontario and other provinces

Individuals who had moved from other provinces to work-- notably, Newfoundland -- will go back. With no money to spend locally, economy of those provinces will also slow down

Sales of real estate already are down in Alberta. There is a possibility of prices going down.

All this negative economic activity should have affect on prices in Toronto -- no increase, no biddings and , perhaps,
even going down

Bubble could start deflating slowly and slowly

How far prices could go down? Would low prices be an opportunity for individuals with deep pockets to pick up real estate at really cheap prices? How long this slow activity could last?

Any thoughts by any body will be welcome -- especially from seasoned 'pros' like Interested, ThekingEast, cdr 108 etc.
 
In the short term, Toronto real estate prices will go up. Housing and the stock market are always the biggest beneficiaries of interest-rate cuts as cheap, borrowed money flows to those two areas.

Long term, this means even more household debt for Canadians (who are at historically high debt levels) and that will be a big(ger) drag on the economy.

I see Canada entering recession (less than 2% growth) in the next twelve months.
 
In the short term, Toronto real estate prices will go up. Housing and the stock market are always the biggest beneficiaries of interest-rate cuts as cheap, borrowed money flows to those two areas.

Long term, this means even more household debt for Canadians (who are at historically high debt levels) and that will be a big(ger) drag on the economy.

I see Canada entering recession (less than 2% growth) in the next twelve months.

I believe for there to be a recession, there has to be 2 quarters consecutive of 0 growth.
I think this is also possible. I don't think there is any doubt that we will have less than 2% growth this year given the collapse of oil prices unless there is a sudden and stunning reversal and I don't believe that will happen.
 
I would like wise guys on this thread to give their thoughts on the economic conditions as they are today and as theyare expected to be in the future.

Inflation rate could dip to zero or even in the negative (early depression)

Economy in Alberta has already taken a dive and province could go into recession

Decline in economic activity (drilling) will have effect in other provinces, including Ontario. Some of the purchases related to oil drilling were being purchased from Ontario and other provinces

Individuals who had moved from other provinces to work-- notably, Newfoundland -- will go back. With no money to spend locally, economy of those provinces will also slow down

Sales of real estate already are down in Alberta. There is a possibility of prices going down.

All this negative economic activity should have affect on prices in Toronto -- no increase, no biddings and , perhaps,
even going down

Bubble could start deflating slowly and slowly

How far prices could go down? Would low prices be an opportunity for individuals with deep pockets to pick up real estate at really cheap prices? How long this slow activity could last?

Any thoughts by any body will be welcome -- especially from seasoned 'pros' like Interested, ThekingEast, cdr 108 etc.


Ka1:
I really don't know. I am not a pro but I have some thoughts which I am willing to share and likely will end up being wrong.
I believe and this is unchanged from my posts from over a year ago that the US, Europe and Canada and for that matter most of the developed world cannot cope with a rise in interest rates and that all the central governments/banks have done is to postpone the inevitable day of reconning. I am not saying we are Japan but I am becoming increasingly worried that that is the direction Europe is headed and Canada.
The US is the strongest most self sufficient major economy on the planet and betting against it is not generally wise because if it goes, so goes the world economy. That said, I can't see with little or no wage pressure in the US that there will be much if any of US interest rate rises. Maybe they get off emergency rates but I don't see with the rest of Europe slowing and China slowing that there is much impetus for the US to raise rates much...at least in the forseeable future which to means despite the predictions of increases in 2015 that it will be 2016 or maybe later 2017 or 2018. I just don't know.

With no money to be made by buying bonds/interest bearing vehicles...money will continue to flow into the stock market and to real estate. I don't see a major correction and I do believe that some young people will unfortunately by into these inflated prices. True, they may make money but I think a lot will be house poor and there is no guarantee that they will go up.

I don't think there is much doubt that Calgary/Edmondton will now deflate but their economy is much more dependent on 1 issue...oil.
Yes, there will be repercussive feelings in Toronto and Ontario...both because oil will hurt the Canadian economy, because everything got more expensive to import and hence we will see prices increase so what is saved on gas will be spent on higher imported costs for food and other items(in my opinion). I believe the economy in Canada slides down more but it will still be a stable country where a dictator or Mickey Mouse government won't just suddenly swoop in and change title or nationalize assets so money may still flow towards here.

Real estate in my view is more about sentiment than reality at these levels and when/if sentiment changes it will be striking how fast the bubble deflates. Personally, I am not as sure it will deflate slowly. I agree detroitbootybass may be correct that in the short term, the cat with nine lives "real estate" has just got another new life. That said, I think in Toronto when it starts to drop, it will go down at least 10- 15% now over the course of a year(arate of about 1%/month or so and it will be only obvious at year end that it has significantly dropped because there will be resistance to accept that prices are really going to drop).

In my experience, people are quick to accept climbing up on the horse and slow to react if they have to get off.
I have to ponder this situation some more. I don't think "deep pockets will pick up a lot of real estate. In fact, I would suggest the deep pockets may well depending on their age...if somewhat older and can live on their assets may well accept little or no return on a significant part of their money and opt for capital preservation rather than return on capital.

If there us a large correction....read 25-30% then I think you will see people step in but not if it goes down 10% and I think it will continue a slow drop if it does 10%.

Just my guess because that is all this is.
 
From the on line globe and mail:
Addresses some of the questions raised by Ka1.


Oil's threat vs. household debt: Poloz's delicate balancing act

TAMSIN McMAHON - REAL ESTATE REPORTER

The Globe and Mail

Published Wednesday, Jan. 21 2015, 7:30 PM EST

Last updated Wednesday, Jan. 21 2015, 7:39 PM EST

5 comments

The Bank of Canada’s surprise move to cut interest rates reflects a tricky balancing act: Protect the economy from the oil slump, without fuelling household debt that’s already near record levels.

In dropping the overnight lending rate to 0.75 per cent from 1 per cent, its first rate cut since September, 2010, the bank shocked markets by putting long-standing worries over rising levels of household debt behind a bigger concern: what plummeting oil prices will mean for the country’s economy.

The Bank of Canada marker is pictured in Ottawa on September 6, 2011. The Bank of Canada will release its latest monetary policy report this morning -- a document expected to explore the economic damage inflicted by falling oil prices. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Sean Kilpatrick
Economy
Video: The good and the bad for consumers after Bank of Canada’s rate cut
The Bank of Canada’s financial system review shows elevated risks to the economy from a housing correction, falling oil prices – and a slowing Chinese economy that dampens demand for Canadian commodities.
Economy
Video: Bank of Canada sees 'elevated' risk of housing correction
Real estate signs in Calgary, Alta., Thursday, June 26, 2014. Calgary’s real estate market in particular is fuelled by the price of energy, which means slumping oil prices could pinch sellers.
Multimedia
The winners and losers following the Bank of Canada’s surprise rate cut

Only last month, Canada’s central bank renewed its warnings about rising levels of household debt, which hovers near an all-time high of 163 per cent of disposable income, and said it believed home prices were as much as 30 per cent overvalued. Yet, in lowering rates, the bank made it clear it sees the effects of lower oil prices spreading far beyond the borders of Alberta, with job losses and cuts to income potentially cascading throughout the economy and leaving indebted households even more vulnerable.

“This decline in oil prices has been a shock to Canadian incomes, which from a debt-to-disposable income point of view is not good news,” senior deputy governor Carolyn Wilkins told a press conference. “Certainly the interest rate movement we made today is designed to offset part of that.”

In its monetary policy report, the bank predicted that without an interest rate a cut, the household debt ratio could have risen by as much as four percentage points as plunging energy profits harm investor portfolios and the job market.

Canadians who headed west in search of employment are returning east, making job markets more competitive in other provinces and contributing to a rise in unemployment and a drop in incomes.

“The record-high evolution of [debt to income] is something which matters a lot to us because it makes the economy vulnerable to a shock,” Bank of Canada Governor Stephen Poloz said, adding the bank sees plunging oil prices as “exactly the kind of trigger we imagine.”

Yet by slashing interest rates after years of warning about the risks that rising house prices and skyrocketing consumer debt levels pose to the economy, the bank also runs the risk that consumers will start turning a deaf ear to its long-standing pleas for Canadians to curb their appetite for cheap credit and may even fuel the flames of the country’s overheated housing market.

“At the end of the day, if you’re a consumer or a homeowner and you see what essentially now amounts to zero or slightly negative real interest rates, you’re going to go out and borrow, probably no matter how much the bank is telling you not to,” said Bank of Montreal senior economist Robert Kavcic.

A rate cut will be “unambiguously good” for the Canadian housing market, particularly outside Alberta, said Toronto-Dominion Bank economist Diana Petramala. Consumers seemed to echo that sentiment yesterday, with real estate brokerage Zoocasa reporting that traffic to its online listings website jumped 20 per cent after the bank’s announcement.

A cut to the central bank’s overnight lending rate will make it cheaper for the roughly 30 per cent of home buyers with short-term or variable-rate mortgages, said Bank of Nova Scotia economist Derek Holt.

Ms. Petramala expects mortgage rates to follow, with banks possibly reviving teaser rates below 3 per cent and said yesterday’s rate cut has raised the likelihood the central bank could cut rates even further down the road. Five-year Government of Canada bond yields touched 0.8 per cent yesterday, down from 1.4 per cent at the start of the month.

While that will give a boost to already strong housing markets outside of Alberta, particularly in cities like Vancouver and Toronto, it also risks encouraging young home buyers to take on more mortgage debt than they can afford. “It’s important for [buyers] to not forget that this is not a normal interest rate environment,” she said.

An interest rate cut will only mean good news for Vancouver’s housing market, said Hareesh Sara, president of Intergulf Development Group, which has several housing and condo developments under way in both British Columbia and Alberta. While his company is being cautious about whether to proceed with planned developments around Calgary and Edmonton, it is plowing ahead with projects in B.C.’s Lower Mainland, where sales had already been strong even before the surprise rate cut.

“I think this is going to be a huge boost because money is even that much cheaper,” he said. “It will certainly help prices. People might be jumping in now because nobody expected this rate cut.” The lower Canadian dollar will also likely make B.C. housing market more appealing to foreign investors, he added.

Several analysts, however, warned that while the rate cut may give a short-term boost to home buyers, it also heightens the risk of a more severe housing correction when interest rates eventually rise.

“If housing prices rise too much in the short-term, eventually they might need to correct more,” said Royal Bank of Canada senior economist Robert Hoult. “If lower interest rates in the near-term cause home prices to increase more, I think it does raise some risk for down the road.”

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Topics:

Bank of Canada
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5 comments
 
Rate cut is not good news at this point, sends me other signals

Exactly, they are rearranging the chairs on the Titanic right now. Clearly there are some serious headwinds for Canada right now for Poloz to make such a surprising move. Canada's economy hasn't been this fragile for over a decade in my estimation and that will mean big problems for real estate, especially when you consider the amount of speculation that is taking place.

Smart foreign investors will be looking the US for real estate investments. A depreciating loonie, serious government budget issues (provincial level), unsustainable fundamentals, and a fragile economy make Canadian real estate investments dangerous.

Many foreign investors have already taken a 20%+ hit on the loonies fall alone.
 
Exactly, they are rearranging the chairs on the Titanic right now. Clearly there are some serious headwinds for Canada right now for Poloz to make such a surprising move. Canada's economy hasn't been this fragile for over a decade in my estimation and that will mean big problems for real estate, especially when you consider the amount of speculation that is taking place.

Smart foreign investors will be looking the US for real estate investments. A depreciating loonie, serious government budget issues (provincial level), unsustainable fundamentals, and a fragile economy make Canadian real estate investments dangerous.

Many foreign investors have already taken a 20%+ hit on the loonies fall alone.

I agree it is not a sign of good things. With the depreciating dollar however, while not good for a foreign investor if it continues to drop, it got cheaper here and correspondingly more expensive to buy in the US.

Also, as Canadians we are taking a big hit when our dollar drops 20% in 2 years. Watch the cost to buy goods over the next 6 months. The savings on gas will largely disappear.

No country ever got ahead by devaluing their currency.
 
Here is an article in today's Toronto Star about negative (inflation-adjusted) median wage growth in Toronto: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ntrast-to-other-provinces-thinktank-says.html

"...found that Ontario’s median income decreased by 1.7 percent between 2006 and 2012. All other provinces and territories except British Columbia saw median income rise during the same period. In Toronto, the median income dropped by 2.8 percent, to $32,670."
 
i believe you completely misunderstood the post.
he did not live in a rooming house, nor was it just 1 room. it was a full floor of a house - 1 bedroom plus separate kitchen + living room + washroom.

Nor was I saying $550 inclusive for the full floor in the annex is the norm; however, I was citing how his example it did not make financial sense to buy vs. what he was paying and getting from renting.

it wasn't a dump nor was it "bling bling" like the new condos, but it was updated and liveable.
Good timing for this article following on this discussion: http://www.blogto.com/city/2015/01/what_kind_of_apartment_does_650_get_you_in_toronto/
"What kind of apartment does $650 get you in Toronto"?
 
i believe you completely misunderstood the post.
he did not live in a rooming house, nor was it just 1 room. it was a full floor of a house - 1 bedroom plus separate kitchen + living room + washroom.

Nor was I saying $550 inclusive for the full floor in the annex is the norm; however, I was citing how his example it did not make financial sense to buy vs. what he was paying and getting from renting.

it wasn't a dump nor was it "bling bling" like the new condos, but it was updated and liveable.

I guess I did misunderstand. But c'mon. $500 for the top floor in a house? I can't picture the acomodations being that great. But it works for your friend. It doesn't work for most people out there. I understand that it made financial sense for him to rent vs buy if the only thing he considered was $. Convenience, quality of life, etc was not as important for him.

Seems like this has nothing to do with rent vs buy since we're comparing apples to oranges in your example. I look at as is it worth it to buy a $350K 1+1 or rent the same 1+1?

I just didn't understand the comparison. That's all.
 

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