News   Dec 20, 2024
 1.3K     7 
News   Dec 20, 2024
 936     2 
News   Dec 20, 2024
 1.8K     0 

Baby, we got a bubble!?

http://www.francesbula.com/uncatego...empty-or-occupied-only-by-temporary-visitors/
"Nearly a quarter of condos in Vancouver are empty or occupied by non-residents in some dense areas of downtown"

http://www.francesbula.com/uncatego...empty-or-occupied-only-by-temporary-visitors/
"And because many of the new flats in some areas are purchased by investors who then leave them empty, local businesses are having a hard time surviving."

Happens in London too:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ner-sees-empty-luxury-homes-hurting-city.html

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...e-investors-who-keep-flats-empty-8702570.html

Like I said..this is not some new phenomenon.

Do you even bother reading other people's posts? This was already refuted...

“These units could be non-resident occupied because their occupants were just away for the Census Day, between rental tenants, or moving in a just-opened building, but there is also a chance that they are someone’s pied-à-terre, vacation home or empty investment holding,†observed Mr. Yan."

You have no reliable data at all to prove your assertion that investors have bought up a significant amount of condos in Canada and are letting them sit vacant in hopes of a future capital gain.
 
Buying a condo and leaving it empty is a good way to offset income from other sources (a tax perspective) and then cash in on a huge cap gain later.

No it isn't. You're trying to make the argument that it makes sense to make less money so you have to pay less tax. Why would you not rent out that same unit, make money on it, pay the tax, and STILL come out ahead? It's like saying you don't want a raise at work because you have to pay additional tax.
 
Do you even bother reading other people's posts? This was already refuted...

“These units could be non-resident occupied because their occupants were just away for the Census Day, between rental tenants, or moving in a just-opened building, but there is also a chance that they are someone’s pied-à-terre, vacation home or empty investment holding,” observed Mr. Yan."

You have no reliable data at all to prove your assertion that investors have bought up a significant amount of condos in Canada and are letting them sit vacant in hopes of a future capital gain.

I'm not going to argue with someone who thinks a suspicion is factual data.

Your entire premise is "But it doesn't make sense to me, so it can't be true". Not worth my time. I doubt you know any overseas investors to be honest.
 
Last edited:
The original study is this one but this was later reaffirmed by subsequent study by the same author, which included the 23% Coal Harbour number. IIRC, the study was presented at a Simon Fraser University forum.

BTW, here is a post that describes exactly what I'm talking about (bolding mine):

I manage units in a building in Coal Harbour right now. I'd estimate about 1/8-1/6 of the units are "sitting empty"-- which is to say they are lived in by owners some of the time, but not for condo flipping. I manage a few of these empty units as part of my company. It's fairly common for them to sit empty while owners are away in Asia.

One two bedroom condo was only used by the daughter of a rich family when her UBC classes are on break and she doesn't want to live in her parents' West Vancouver home. The last time she came back was because her dog had an injury and couldn't climb the stairs so she moved into the condo for a few days while he recovered.

Most are units from families who travel back and forth between Asia. They don't like spending winters in Canada because it gets too cold and renting them out isn't desirable since they don't like strangers touching their things.

I can really only speak of coal Harbour because its what I have direct experience with it and its what the article mentioned. I don't know why they didn't contact property management companies like ours during their study, we could have cleared it up immediately.


---

P.S. I lived in Vancouver for a while, and getting back and forth from West Vancouver is a huge pain. Actually I was in North Van, which is right beside West Van and served by the same very crowded bridge, so I know first hand. If I were a UBC student, and was from a wealthy family, I'd want to stay nearer the university too, and Coal Harbour would be a nice option although probably not my top choice.

I was actually joking. Yes, I agree, some units are Pied a terres...but some are just sitting empty waiting to be sold. Frankly, none of us have any real numbers but it wouldn't be a topic if it didn't happen. The units could sit idle for a 6 months or 2 years. I know a few units in my building that are owned and empty. You see this with new condos. While it may not make sense to you or me to buy property and leave it empty...it makes sense to some investors.

I just have a problem with someone (DearSummer) wanting real numbers for something that is very difficult to track. My "data" or evidence is anecdotal...as is yours..so where do we go from here? *paging DearSummer*
 
No it isn't. You're trying to make the argument that it makes sense to make less money so you have to pay less tax. Why would you not rent out that same unit, make money on it, pay the tax, and STILL come out ahead? It's like saying you don't want a raise at work because you have to pay additional tax.
Hmmm... I personally don't fully understand the tax implications since I don't do this, but I'm thinking it's more like saying you don't want a raise at work because it would also mean more work to get that raise and you also would have to pay additional tax.

In fact, I'm in that scenario right now. I am essentially working 110% for 115% of my original pay. The 10% is additional work I do for my workplace that isn't part of my original job description. Initially I kinda liked it because for 10% extra work, I make 15% extra money. However, after several years of this, I'm not keen on doing it anymore, because it's still 10% extra work, and that extra work is taxed at my highest tax bracket. At this point, I'd rather just have the free time. Unfortunately, it's hard to unring that bell now. My enlightened colleagues aren't interested in the extra work either despite the extra pay, so for the time being I'm stuck with it.

You would get revenue from renting out a unit, but even with a management company, it can be a major headache at times. When my friends rented out their condos, they'd get management companies to do it. The management companies would get 1 month's rent per year as payment, but my friends would still have to pay extra to get things done like painting walls, repairing/replacing appliances, cleaning/replacing carpets, etc. Also, sometimes the units were just sitting empty for a few months. And they'd still have to rent hotel rooms or guest suites when they came to the city. And there's always the risk of nightmare tenants. So in the end they just said screw it, and stopped renting them out, and just keep them for their own use.

I was actually joking. Yes, I agree, some units are Pied a terres...but some are just sitting empty waiting to be sold. Frankly, none of us have any real numbers but it wouldn't be a topic if it didn't happen. The units could sit idle for a 6 months or 2 years. I know a few units in my building that are owned and empty. You see this with new condos. While it may not make sense to you or me to buy property and leave it empty...it makes sense to some investors.

I just have a problem with someone (DearSummer) wanting real numbers for something that is very difficult to track. My "data" or evidence is anecdotal...as is yours..so where do we go from here? *paging DearSummer*
My point was that although I'm sure a few empty units are intentionally kept empty just for flipping, the number is definitely a lot lower than what a lot of popular press thinks it is. I've seen that 25% (actually 23%) number thrown around so many times, with no background. It's like the myth schizophrenia means split personality like multiple personality disorder, or the myth that we only use 10% of our brains (see movie Lucy).

I'm not an expert on Vancouver by any means, but I did know that Coal Harbour is a very popular place for wealthy Chinese to buy these pied-a-terres, although actually some of them are their primary homes. (Some don't want big detached homes, but would rather have multiple condos in multiple cities, with Vancouver as the main base.) But the other point I wanted to emphasize is that many of these wealthy Chinese aren't even "foreign", since many are actually Canadian citizens.
 
Last edited:
I'm not going to argue with someone who thinks a suspicion is factual data.

Your entire premise is "But it doesn't make sense to me, so it can't be true". Not worth my time. I doubt you know any overseas investors to be honest.

So you personally know people that buy condos and have them sit vacant in Canada? Why do they do this?
 
I just have a problem with someone (DearSummer) wanting real numbers for something that is very difficult to track. My "data" or evidence is anecdotal...as is yours..so where do we go from here? *paging DearSummer*

You were the one that made the unsubstantiated claim bud, not me.

It may sound ridiculous to you but that's exactly what some investors do. They buy the property and sit on it. There are many condos that are sitting vacant right now.

Where have you been living? This is pretty common.

I simply asked for a source. You didn't have one, so it's "anecdotal". I never claimed that I have data showing that nobody buys condos and leaves them vacant as an investment. I simply asked for evidence for your assertion, which you couldn't provide.

It's like me saying show me proof that God exists. You respond by saying show me proof that he doesn't exist. That's not how logic/debates work. ;)
 
Last edited:
Hmmm... I personally don't fully understand the tax implications since I don't do this, but I'm thinking it's more like saying you don't want a raise at work because it would also mean more work to get that raise and you also would have to pay additional tax.

In fact, I'm in that scenario right now. I am essentially working 110% for 115% of my original pay. The 10% is additional work I do for my workplace that isn't part of my original job description. Initially I kinda liked it because for 10% extra work, I make 15% extra money. However, after several years of this, I'm not keen on doing it anymore, because it's still 10% extra work, and that extra work is taxed at my highest tax bracket. At this point, I'd rather just have the free time. Unfortunately, it's hard to unring that bell now. My enlightened colleagues aren't interested in the extra work either despite the extra pay, so for the time being I'm stuck with it.

You would get revenue from renting out a unit, but even with a management company, it can be a major headache at times. When my friends rented out their condos, they'd get management companies to do it. The management companies would get 1 month's rent per year as payment, but my friends would still have to pay extra to get things done like painting walls, repairing/replacing appliances, cleaning/replacing carpets, etc. Also, sometimes the units were just sitting empty for a few months. And they'd still have to rent hotel rooms or guest suites when they came to the city. And there's always the risk of nightmare tenants. So in the end they just said screw it, and stopped renting them out, and just keep them for their own use.

Keeping a condo for your own use and having it sit vacant for investment purposes are two different things. If you are investor, you would be thinking economically. There is no economic argument against renting out a vacant condo that you own as an investment, as the rent you receive will certainly be higher than your costs to rent it out.
 
Keeping a condo for your own use and having it sit vacant for investment purposes are two different things. If you are investor, you would be thinking economically. There is no economic argument against renting out a vacant condo that you own as an investment, as the rent you receive will certainly be higher than your costs to rent it out.
If you're talking pure costs, usually that is true, but not always, and sometimes people just don't want to deal with the aggravation factor.

BTW, not that this is directly applicable, but FWIW:

When my sister bought her condo, it had already been sitting on the market for many moons. So she got a nice discount. Why had it been sitting there? Because the tenant was an ass. He often refused to let people come by for viewings, and even when he did let people come the place was left as a total mess. So, the place never sold. Finally the owners gave him the boot, cleaned the place up, and only after that did it sell... at a lower price.
 
Canadian economy stalls, creates paltry 200 jobs last month


OTTAWA—Trouble in Canada’s jobs market extended into July as a paltry 200 jobs were added during the month, widely missing expectations.

Canada’s unemployment rate dropped one-tenth of a point to 7.0 per cent for the month, as fewer people went looking for work.

Economists had expected the economy to bounce back with the creation of 20,000 — an improvement from June’s unexpected decline of 9,400.

Over the past 12 months, the economy has added 115,300 new jobs — or 0.7 per cent of the labour force — with all the growth in part-time work.

Between June and July, the number of full-time jobs fell by 59,700; part-time jobs increased by 60,000.


http://www.thestar.com/business/eco...rate_drops_but_just_200_net_jobs_created.html


*Locally, the Toronto unemployment rate rose from 7.9% to 8.1%
 
Last edited:
CMHC report says just 17.1% of Toronto, Vancouver condos investor-owned
New survey of condo market sure to be criticized for leaving out more than it includes.


Canada’s federal housing agency has tried — yet again — to pull back the curtain on Toronto’s and Vancouver’s condo market and says its latest survey of owners shows just 17.1 per cent are investors and 82.9 per cent own the condo in which they live.

The survey released Friday by the Canada Housing and Mortgage Corp. is sure to be widely questioned by housing watchers, especially in Toronto where investors are generally believed to control far more — at least 40 per cent — of the condo market.

The especially big question has been how much of the market is dominated by foreign investors — wealthy people from areas such as Asia, Russia and the Middle East who are simply looking to park their money offshore.

Surprisingly, that sector of condo owners wasn’t included in the survey.

“The survey did not cover Canadian households that own condominium units in Toronto or Vancouver but do not reside in these CMAs (Census Metropolitan Areas.) Foreign investors, and corporate investors are also not covered by the survey,†said CMHC in a statement.

The surprising findings are also likely to be questioned in the wake of a similar survey last year by CMHC.

That report was criticized for providing more confusion than clarity: While it found investors were a “strong presence†in both Toronto’s and Vancouver’s condominium markets, it found just 23 per cent of Toronto units and 26 of Vancouver’s were occupied by renters rather than owners.

But the survey only looked at condos rented via the MLS system. It didn’t include investor-owned condos just sitting empty or rented via free websites like Craigslist, Kijiji or word-of-mouth.


The rest of the article is found here: http://www.thestar.com/business/rea...f_toronto_vancouver_condos_investorowned.html
 
Buying a condo and leaving it empty is a good way to offset income from other sources (a tax perspective) and then cash in on a huge cap gain later.

Btw.. great call on the July numbers CG

Simply put, no it's not.

Negative cash flow is not a tax mitigation strategy. You are horribly mistaken.

The empty units are sitting because of the cultural stigma associated with 'used' apartments or because they are occasional accommodations for owners.
 
Simply put, no it's not.

Negative cash flow is not a tax mitigation strategy. You are horribly mistaken.

The empty units are sitting because of the cultural stigma associated with 'used' apartments or because they are occasional accommodations for owners.

CN Tower, you are of course correct and Toronto Mike$$ argument is only logical in the sense that offsetting some of your other income with losses means the government shares up to 50% with you on your loss. You still have the other 50% loss. I know few investors who set out to lose money. If Toronto Mike$$ is a realtor as I believe he mentioned in the past he is(but I could be mistaken) I sincerely hope he is not advising his clients that this is reasonable strategy.
 
I am not a smart man

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/rntl/bt/rprt/xpns/menu-eng.html

Expenses that can be deducted at 100% to offset rental and/or other income (if expenses are more than rental income).

You guys should not be giving any advice .. especially real estate or tax. Advice on how to rent ..maybe.

TorontoMike-$$,

Let's play a game. You go out and purchase a condo for $1,000,000 (this is a hypothetical because we're all aware that your credit would never allow it) and sell it to me $100,000.

Mike! Looks like you've got yourself a $900,000 loss! That's incredible! That's a loss you can fully use to offset future capital gains! Fantastic!

Or here's another beauty:


I'll sell you my condo that's worth $100,000 for $1,000,000. You go get a $900,000 mortgage (again massive hypothetical) and leave that sucker empty.

Hey Mike, great news!!! Your mortgage payment, taxes, maintenance and insurance come to $$50,000 per year! You can use that incredible loss to offset all that income you're making spewing bullsh@t on the internet to unsuspecting viewers!


Mods, please sticky Mike's post as a tombstone for all to know his monumental stupidity.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top