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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Greedy speculator angry at low-life developer. (Boo-hoo)

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1108666--star-exclusive-angry-trump-condo-buyer-wants-out

Angry Trump condo buyer wants out

Alice Batista readily admits she was blinded by dollar signs and slick advertising when she dialled up the Trump hotel and condo sales office back in 2006.


greedy speculative fools all around.

who in their right mind would pay 35+% appreciation in 6 months ... if that isn't a sign of a speculative bubble, please show me what is !?!
$1500 psf in 2007 !?!

from the article:
"Legal documents obtained by the Star show that sales director Adina Zak bought the preconstruction condo for $948,100 in 2006 and flipped it to Batista six months later for $350,000 more.

It was only in November, when Batista listed the hotel/condo suite with a realtor, that the agent discovered it was just 856 square feet, not the 1,000 square feet Batista says she bought in 2007."

-------

But her boss, Talon chief executive Val Levitan, defends the sale, saying he had a “moral obligation” to let Zak — “and a few other customers” — buy a unit and flip them for their own profit.

“Adina has been with me for 11 years. She is a very dedicated person who I wanted to do a favour for . . . Sometimes you make an exception. The world is not black and white.


someone has really skewed morals
 
Last edited:
Greedy speculator angry at low-life developer. (Boo-hoo)

http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1108666--star-exclusive-angry-trump-condo-buyer-wants-out

Angry Trump condo buyer wants out

Alice Batista readily admits she was blinded by dollar signs and slick advertising when she dialled up the Trump hotel and condo sales office back in 2006.

Canary in a coal mine for the luxury market but this will trickle down to other amateur developers as well. My sympathies go out to Schneider. He will have a lot of legal issues with this one by the looks of it.

Probably safe at $600 psf.
 
There should be a rule that no condo can be assigned period. This is where a lot of speculators make most of their money selling the idea to the consumer that prices will increase a certain amount.

The market is a different beast then when it is in pre-construction or construction phase. Also numbers aren't tracked like they are when a re-sale condo sells through the MLS system, so anyone can come up with a number just to satisfy their pocket book.

I do have little sympathy for people who bought into this project, because they are complaining paying too much for something that they were going to assign for way too much. Hmmm somewhat ironic that it is coming back to bite them in their ass. I don't know why anyone would have invested in this project, for me the big warning sign is a rookie builder.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Trump, becuase it could possibly change how things are done.
 
Highrise sales set records in 2011, but what lies ahead? (the Toronto Star)
December 30, 2011

Ryan Starr


From left, Marco Filice, Liberty Developments, Jim Ritchie of Tridel, Andrew Hoffman from CentreCourt Developments, Peter Freed of Freed Developments, Danny Roth of Brandon Communications, Riz Dhanji of Canderel Residential, Mimi Ng from Menkes, and Paul Golini of Empire Communities discuss the state of the industry at a Toronto Star board table.

Keith Beaty/Toronto Star

“The best year ever, right?” developer Peter Freed asked upon hearing the 2011 sales totals for Toronto’s condo market.

Indeed it was the best year on record for highrise sales. According to RealNet Canada, 27,224 condos were sold between January and November. The previous sales record from 2007 was surpassed at the end of October.

Meanwhile, GTA home prices in November hit a record average of $481,305, almost 10 per cent more than the average home was worth a year ago, according to the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Earlier this month Freed, president of Freed Developments, joined with half a dozen of the city’s other key real estate players for a Toronto Star-sponsored roundtable.

The discussion — moderated by Brandon Communications president Danny Roth — reflected on the year that was in real estate and looked ahead to 2012.

“How do you explain it?” Roth asked the roundtable, referring to Toronto’s bustling condo market.

“We have an immigration policy that drives the need for housing,” noted Andrew Hoffman, president of CentreCourt Developments.

“And you think back over the last 30 years there’s been no purpose-built rentals in this market. So that’s a huge driver for demand, plus low interest rates and the affordability of condos. All those factors drive the continued growth.”

Bad news bears

So why do economists and analysts continue to predict the imminent collapse of the Toronto condo market?

“Bad news sells papers better than good news,” suggested Mimi Ng, vice president of sales and marketing for Menkes Developments.

“We can all agree there’s a disconnect between our industry and these pundits who try and predict how this thing goes forward,” added Jim Ritchie, Tridel’s vice president of sales and marketing. “They don’t know the nuances of this industry.”

Paul Golini, executive vice president of Empire Communities and current head of the Building and Industry and Land Development Association (BILD), said the chatter is “fear mongering” that’s based on inaccurate comparisons with what’s happened in the U.S.

“The fact is, there are tangible real differences between that and what’s taking place in the GTA market,” he said, citing Canada’s tighter lending rules as one. “There’s an array of differences that aren’t talked about often enough.”

Size matters

One thing that is talked about a lot — the shrinking size of downtown condo suites.

“Our average unit size has fallen considerably from four or five years ago,” noted Riz Dhanji, vice president of sales and marketing for Canderel Residential.

“The concern is we’re all building the smaller units to hit a price point, but at some point there’s that move-up buyer that doesn’t want to live in 500 square feet. So we need to have some larger product.”

Hoffman argued that downtown buyers don’t mind living in smaller condos. “They’re living active lives, they’re spending time at work, they’re out at restaurants and sporting events, and if they do entertain they’re usually not doing it in their home; they’re doing it at other venues or in the amenity space provided by the condo.”

The way units are designed these days makes it easier to live comfortably in smaller spaces, he added. “The functionality of design has improved tremendously in recent years.”

Family matters

Trinity-Spadina Councillor Adam Vaughan, whose ward is condo-construction central, is taking proactive steps to ensure larger suites are built downtown.

He would like to see all condo buildings in his ward include 10 per cent “family-size” units — either three-bedroom suites or two smaller units that can be converted into a three-bedroom suite, typically via knockout panels.

The goal of supplying family-sized condos is admirable, the roundtable agreed. Problem is, larger suites are often the last to sell and are considerably more expensive — well north of $500,000 downtown.

“It boils down to how much does it cost, and is a typical family willing to spend that kind of money for a condo in the core in the city,” Ritchie said.

“The trick is coming up with something that is affordable in a proper size that will work as a three-bedroom (suite).”

Glass houses

There was lots to talk about this summer when glass began falling off condo towers downtown. How did this PR nightmare impact the developers, Star real estate editor Gale Beeby wondered.

“I think it’s fair to say the attention has elevated the focus of developers and their consultants,” Hoffman said. “Wind was a big factor not appropriately factored into the design elements. So certainly the consulting industry (will now be) focused on those details before moving forward with any contracts.”

Transit toll

In the 905, condo suites may be more spacious and glass might remain on the buildings, but transit — or lack of it — is a serious concern for builders

In accordance with the province’s Places to Grow policy, developers are transitioning from lowrise construction to mixed-use, highrise condo developments.

“I think Highway 7 has the potential to be the new Yonge St.,” Marco Filice, vice president of Liberty Development, told the roundtable.

With all the mixed-use projects planned along Highway 7, the lower portion of York Region — Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Markham — could develop the same population density as North York’s Yonge corridor, Filice said.

Just one major hitch — “severely underfunded” transit.

Mix it up

Back downtown, the growth in mixed-use developments is changing the way we live, Golini pointed out.

“We’re looking at a new model where urban retail, residential and commercial are together. You’re seeing the big grocery stores and the big box stores change their model, whether it’s Home Depot or Wal-Mart.

“They’re coming up with a smaller format that fits into the podium component of our condo communities.”

Dhanji noted that at Aura, Canderel’s iconic condo project at Yonge and Gerrard Sts..., there will be 180,000 square feet of commercial space with tenants that include U.S. retailers Bed Bath & Beyond and Marshalls.

“They see the need to be able to get strong retail in the downtown core and adjust their model for smaller (floor)plates to be able to get into that space.”

“I think we’re going to see more of that,” Golini said. “I don’t think it’s just a trend. It’s more of what needs to be done.”

Looking ahead

Speaking of trends, if 2011 was a record year for condo builders, what does 2012 hold in store?

“I might be so bold as to say we’ll hit the same highrise numbers we hit this year just based on what’s in the pipeline and the momentum that’s going to carry over from 2011 to 2012,” Golini told the roundtable. Though he cautioned that things could slow down in a couple of years, when soaring land prices begin to impact the affordability of condo projects.

At the moment, though, Freed isn’t seeing signs of a slowdown. King West’s condo king said he’s planning to launch 3,000 units over the next 18 months, expanding beyond his domain to do projects on King East, in Yorkville and at Yonge and Eglinton.

“We agree with the optimism around the table,” he said as the roundtable wrapped up. “We’re excited.”

What’s on tap

Looks like a busy year ahead for some of T.O.’s major condo builders:

• Canderel Residential: Condo tower planned for Yonge and Grenville; www.canderel.com/residential

• CentreCourt Developments: Building Peter Street Condos and Karma Condos, and a new downtown project to be announced; www.centrecourtdevelopments.com
• Empire Communities: Eau Du Soleil, 1,500-unit project at Lake Shore Blvd. W. and Marine Parade Dr.; www.empirecommunities.com

• Freed Developments: 3,000 units over the next 18 months; sites on Colborne St. (King and Church), Yorkville, Yonge and Eglinton, Bathurst and Front; www.freeddevelopments.com
• Liberty Development: Building World on Yonge: four residential highrise towers, office complex with hotel facilities, retail centre and park; www.libertydevelopment.ca
• Menkes Developments: Fabric Condos: 180-unit project at Richmond and Spadina; 365 Church Condos (Church and Carlton); large mixed-use project at Harbour and York; www.menkes.com
• Tridel: Ten York, proposed 75-storey tower at Harbour and York; www.tridel.com
 
Seven developers talking about real estate. A pure puff piece given by the Star to its advertisers.
 
how often do builder's build a unit smaller than the advertised square footage?


well the 'usuable' square footage is at least 10% less than the stated amount because of the thickness of the exterior walls, and then there's the interior walls also.

i hear some other countries advertised sf is calculated differently, where the amount is based on interior area and not the exterior walls
 
Real estate bubble in 2012? Nah, it's starting to float back to Earth
katherine scarrow
Globe and Mail Update
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2011 6:19AM EST
As global housing markets coughed and sputtered in 2011, Canada's barrelled ahead, even turning a few nervous heads along the way.
In fact, recently the Economist branded Canada one of the nine countries where “home prices are overvalued by about 25 per cent or more,” and among the four where prices are in line with those in the United States "at the peak of its bubble."
Is there really a cause for alarm? Are we doomed to ride this white-knuckled rollercoaster in 2012? Probably not, according to Benjamin Tal, deputy chief economist of CIBC.
"The housing market of tomorrow will not be as exciting as the housing market of yesterday,” he said in an interview.
While the current real estate market is overshooting, with home prices far higher than than they should be, we shouldn't expect a crash either, he explains. As long as interest rates remain relatively low and subprime mortgages kept at bay, the most likely scenario is that the market will plateau.
“Prices are already softening, housing starts aren’t in the sky, MLS [multiple listing service] activity is starting to soften, so it suggests the market is already starting to level off, and that’s what we need,” he said.
How will a more relaxed real estate market affect new homebuyers, investors and renovators in 2012? Here are Mr. Tal's predictions:
1. First-time home buyers
• Affordability and interest rates will be the major concerns in 2012. Prices will continue to be expensive, especially in urban centres like Vancouver and Toronto, since interest rates are likely to remain low for the time being.
• But rates won't stay low forever, which is why you should estimate mortgage payments based on interest rates that are 2 or 3 percentage points higher than current interesst rates, and if you cannot afford that, get a smaller mortgage and buy a less expensive house.
• Expect an end to bidding wars, or at least a temporary ceasefire. New home buyers will have the luxury of time in terms of looking at properties without being rushed into decisions. That’s the positive. The negative is that prices continue to be drastically higher than they were five or 10 years ago.
2. Investors and flippers
• If you’re in it to flip it – meaning you buy a home hoping the price will rise by just doing minimal changes – those days are over.
• In some pockets of the country, you may even see prices go down.
3. Renovators
• The cost of renovations will not increase significantly so long as interest rates remain at their current level, so it’s a good idea to take advantage of this time to finance these projects.
• For those looking to take on a second mortgage, remember to make sure you’re equipped to finance them if interest rates creep up.
• Variable-rate mortgages are still a good option for those who are able to withstand fluctuations in the market and "ride the ups and downs without getting a stomach ache."
 
http://business.financialpost.com/2...10-drop-in-home-prices-in-first-half-of-2012/
Look for 5% to 10% drop in home prices in first half of 2012

Christine Dobby Dec 19, 2011 – 2:30 PM ET | Last Updated: Dec 19, 2011 3:36 PM ET
REUTERS/Mark Blinch

REUTERS/Mark Blinch

Canadian housing prices are likely to drop between 5% and 10% in the first half of 2012, according to a research report from

With a gloomy outlook for the Canadian housing market, which they see as overvalued and flooded with supply, economists at Bank of America Merrill Lynch are warning that home prices are likely to drop between 5% and 10% in the first half of 2012.

Ryan Bohren and Sheryl King, Canadian economists at the bank, have taken a bearish stance on the real estate market before, warning of a possible 15% correction to the Toronto condo market in an October report.

In a report on the outlook for housing in 2012, Mr. Bohren and Ms. King noted that while Canada is somewhat shielded from the situation in Europe, it is not immune to it and the economic fallout could worsen if unemployment creeps up to 8%.

“In our view, the housing market is one of the most vulnerable sectors to this weakening economic environment, showing classic signs of overvaluation, speculation and oversupply,” they said in the report published Friday. “We are not calling for an all-out rout in the market, but caution is now decidedly warranted.”

What’s more, they said, using their fair-value model for average home prices, that takes into account disposable income and interest rates, home prices in Canada are about 10% overvalued. In their view, this is due to record low mortgage rates allowing households to leverage more than ever before.

“Lower interest rates explain a significant portion of elevated household leverage ratios,” Mr. Bohren and Ms. King noted.

In 1982, for example, for every $1 of income available for borrowing, the average household could borrow $6; now, that same $1 can be levered up to $20, the authors noted.

They also pointed to longer maximum amortization periods as a factor in inflated valuations.

“If mortgage rules were reverted back to where they were in 2000 and the maximum amortization for an insured mortgage was 25-years, instead of the current 30-years, we believe home prices would be almost 20% overvalued,” the authors said.

“If we removed both of these effects [low rates and longer amortization periods] on our fair value model, home prices would look about 35% overvalued,” they said.

As for the outlook for next year, their base case scenario, to which they assign a 50% probability, is for a soft landing for the housing market. They see home prices dropping by about 5% in the near term but rebounding in the second half of the year to end 2012 about flat.

Their more adverse outcome, to which they assign a 40% probability, is based on a global recession and sharp drop in commodity demand, pushing the Canadian economy into “outright recession” and unemployment up to 8% from its current level of 7.4%.

Linked as it is to jobs and income growth, expect a hard landing for the housing market under this scenario, the authors said.

A spike in the unemployment rate under the bearish outlook would likely result in a rise in mortgage delinquencies and forced selling, producing a decline in home prices of about 10%, they said.

For investors eyeing the sector, the authors noted that shares in Canadian home builders and non-bank financials with direct exposure to the housing market turned negative in April and could fall further in 2012,

Their base scenario is probably priced into the 30% decline home builder stocks have already experienced since an April high, the authors said.

“However, housing sensitive financial stocks are only down 13% from April and will likely fall further as home prices and home sale activity slows into 2012,” they added.

Their more adverse scenario could mean a further 20% decline for both home builders and housing sensitive financial stocks.


Along the same venue as Ka1's globe and mail report. Note. This is not new, just a rehash of their previous prediction.
So, as I understand it: soft landing 50% chance with 5-10% decline and recovery by end of year.
40% hard landing. I guess that means 10% status quo or increase. I think that covers just about everything, just a question of how much these particular economists guess probabilities. Let's face it, it is just guess work.

I find it difficult enough to predict a logical trend, let alone assign probabilities. I guess they can claim they were right at the end of the year no matter what happens.(barring a huge price increase).

I am actually a bit more hopeful. Everyone is so down on Europe and expecting everything to be so bad in N.America next year, maybe there will finally be some resolution and some improvement though a lot of problems still will exist.

I read this too - I do think that 5-10% is a little much though and definitely not in the first half of the year. Maybe 2-3% sometime after May.
 
They can do as much as the government in the US, Ireland, etc were able to do, which unfortunately was not a lot. Once air starts to escape from the bubble, there nothing anyone can do to put it back in.

We here in Canada had the start of collapse in 2008/09. Our government spent $50 billion... they encouraged home owners to renovate by offering the home renovation tax credit. They didn't take away the new home buyer tax credit, they didn't remove the GST/HST new housing rebate. They didn't lower the amount you could borrow from your RRSP. And they lowered interest rates... and some homeowners were extended credit, and were offered skip-a-payment if they fell behind in their mortgage payments. And then... Canadian's got more credit card debt, line of credits, personal loans... and went shopping...

So there is no need to worry about lower housing prices... our government will do anything to keep those prices high.
 
They can do as much as the government in the US, Ireland, etc were able to do, which unfortunately was not a lot. Once air starts to escape from the bubble, there nothing anyone can do to put it back in.

The US government actually did A LOT.

For 2008: up to $7,500, the credit is paid back over 15 years.
For Jan - Nov 2009: up to $8,000, the credit does not need to be paid back.

For Dec 2009 - April 2010: up to $8,000 for first-time buyers, the credit does not need to be paid back.

For Nov 7, 2009 - April 2010: up to $6,500 for "long-term residents" buying a new home, the credit does not need to be paid back.

Until April 30, 2011: homebuyer credit continues to be available for qualified members of the U.S. uniformed services.

http://taxes.about.com/od/deductionscredits/qt/homebuyercredit.htm
 
December 2011 stats

TORONTO, January 5, 2012 -- Greater Toronto REALTORS® reported 4,718 transactions through the TorontoMLS® system in December 2011. The December result capped off the second-best year on record under the current Toronto Real Estate Board (TREB) boundaries. Total sales for 2011 amounted to 89,347 – up four per cent in comparison to 2010.

“Low borrowing costs kept Buyers confident in their ability to comfortably cover their mortgage payments along with other major housing costs,” said TREB President Richard Silver. “If Buyers had not been constrained by a shortage of listings over the past 12 months, we would have been flirting with a new sales record in the Greater Toronto Area,” added Silver.

The average selling price in December was $451,436 – up four per cent compared to December 2010. For all of 2011, the average selling price was $465,412, an increase of eight per cent in comparison to the average of $431,276 in 2010.

“Months of inventory remained below the pre-recession norm in 2011. Very tight market conditions meant substantial competition between Buyers and strong upward pressure on selling prices,” said Jason Mercer, TREB’s Senior Manager of Market Analysis.

“TREB’s baseline forecast for 2012 is for an average price of $485,000, representing a more moderate four per cent annual rate of price growth. This baseline view is subject to a heightened degree of risk given the uncertain global economic outlook,” continued Mercer.

Toronto proper up only 2.5% y/y to $474,270

Toronto proper condos up 3% y/y to $351,104

Seems to be slowing down y/y. January 2012 stats should be interesting.

http://www.torontorealestateboard.c...ket_updates/news2011/nr_market_watch_1211.htm
 
We here in Canada had the start of collapse in 2008/09. Our government spent $50 billion... they encouraged home owners to renovate by offering the home renovation tax credit. They didn't take away the new home buyer tax credit, they didn't remove the GST/HST new housing rebate. They didn't lower the amount you could borrow from your RRSP. And they lowered interest rates... and some homeowners were extended credit, and were offered skip-a-payment if they fell behind in their mortgage payments. And then... Canadian's got more credit card debt, line of credits, personal loans... and went shopping...

So there is no need to worry about lower housing prices... our government will do anything to keep those prices high.

The government went to great lengths in 2008, but how many bullets do they have left to avert another crisis? If it were that easy to avert a bubble bursting then no country would ever experience a housing collapse.

The US government actually did A LOT.

For 2008: up to $7,500, the credit is paid back over 15 years.
For Jan - Nov 2009: up to $8,000, the credit does not need to be paid back.

For Dec 2009 - April 2010: up to $8,000 for first-time buyers, the credit does not need to be paid back.

For Nov 7, 2009 - April 2010: up to $6,500 for "long-term residents" buying a new home, the credit does not need to be paid back.

Until April 30, 2011: homebuyer credit continues to be available for qualified members of the U.S. uniformed services.

http://taxes.about.com/od/deductionscredits/qt/homebuyercredit.htm

No doubt, the US government tried to help the housing market. But did it stop prices from falling? Did it stop the bubble from bursting? I would say it didn't.
 
We here in Canada had the start of collapse in 2008/09. Our government spent $50 billion... they encouraged home owners to renovate by offering the home renovation tax credit. They didn't take away the new home buyer tax credit, they didn't remove the GST/HST new housing rebate. They didn't lower the amount you could borrow from your RRSP. And they lowered interest rates... and some homeowners were extended credit, and were offered skip-a-payment if they fell behind in their mortgage payments. And then... Canadian's got more credit card debt, line of credits, personal loans... and went shopping...

You also failed to mention they added the Toronto land transfer tax of 2% for prices over 400k (many are over that in Toronto). And the HST added another 2% to housing costs (The rebate only covers 6% under 400k). For those purchases over 400k, they're paying full 13% HST over the 400k instead of the 5% GST.
 

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