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Baby, we got a bubble!?

Thanks once again for your replies.

Not sure what you mean - the $120k would return 10%. I suppose I could keep it in the bank at 2% or buy dividend stocks at 5%, but every investment has an opportunity cost.

Agree - I think this is the kicker. The first 5 years are cashflow positive and quite profitable, but the biggest risk in this "deal" is years 5-10.

It's only relevant for getting a mortgage refinancing. The Bank won't lend me $410k on a property that's worth less than that. Prices have to fall massively for this to be the case.

Don't disagree with any of your math here. I suppose if I wanted to "juice" the return, I could pull equity our at year 5 and refinance at an LTV of 80%. But mortgage rates will be higher then, and depending on rent increases, the return may not be as good.

For me this would be buy and hold. I assume prices are flat.

To be honest, one of the appealing bits about an investment like this is being able to borrow money at 3%, eg, inflation level. It's free money.

Hard to argue with this. Wish I had a time machine and could go back to 2009 to buy instead. Though that's when this thread was created, oddly enough.

I'd say the cheap money is the best part!

Indeed, this is the very sort of analysis I'm doing now.

Ok, let's try this a different way.

Lets say that the mortgage rate remains at 3% indefinately.
And lets say you pay 0% income tax on the revenue net of expenses (remember, principal paydown is not an "expense" for tax)
And let's say you follow your buy and hold strategy indefinately.
And lets say that prices are flat (net of inflation) indefinately, as are rents.
And your excess cashflow is used to cover all maintenance/vacancie (1% of the house value is standard for this)
And you place zero cash value on the DIY labour that you spend on this over that time.

So after 25 years, you own a $600k asset. This comes from $120k making 6.6% net of inflation, compounded for 25 years.

So then what happens? You are now earning revenue of $27k on an asset of $600k. A return of 4.5%. Not so great. And you only got here with a 3% mortgage rate guaranteed for 25 years, and no taxes.

Sure, you'll just say "well, I would re-leverage at some point". But this is exactly my point. You're only making money on this "investment" because the bank is indeed "giving it away" and you're making money on the spread between your income and that 3%, (and then ignoring the tax considerations). And they're only giving it away because that what the US Fed and the Bank of Canada are doing. And when that merry-go-round stops?

Think if it this way. Why does the bank need you? Why don't they just buy the house themselves?
 
Are you certain that you can get a $2,000 two-bedroom rental and a $1,300 one-bedroom out of either of these properties?


yeah i questioned the rental potential for a $600K property.
he also provided 2 listings at $599K and $637K, but how realistic will it be that they will be sold for those prices.
i think they are intentionally underpriced for bidding wars.

here's something in Prime Riverdale for $1.6MM:
http://www.icx.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=12449985&PidKey=-1911494583

6 Units(3-2Bdrm,1-1Bdrm,2Bachelor). Gross Rent Approx. 70K & Expenses 23.5. Separate Hydro Meters Except Bsmt. Coin Laundry(R). Main Level Apt#1 2Level 2Bdrm=$1250, Apt#4 2Bdrm=$1200 2nd Level Apt#2 2Level 2Bdrm=$1350, Apt#3 1Bdrm=$950 3rd Level Apt#5 Bachelor=$450 Bsmt Level Apt#6 Bachelor=$550

notice that the 1 bedroom is leased for $950, and the 2-bed units for $1200-1350
 
I haven't posted on here for awhile as I found the arguments both for and against the bubble to be rather circular and after 15 months of following the discussion I started there was probably nothing new to add. The numbers were the numbers and it seemed like people who disagreed with the notion of a bubble were evangelical and almost faith-like in their disbelief of warning signs - regardless of how insane things got, regardless of empirical evidence, regardless of debt ratios, unemployment figures, immigration numbers and facts, the sky was never going to fall it was instead going to reach into the heavens. The Tea Party would've been proud.

I didn't go back and look at my posts to get an exact date, but I believe I was calling for a correction to begin sometime around May-ish 2011. I was wrong. Plain wrong. And I do believe I owe Condo George a coffee for that. Instead, I was 11 months too early and the condo correction (I was never discussing houses) started in April of 2012 - although the luxury market did start its correction in May of 2011, right on schedule. The numbers haven't looked good over the summer - of course this was written off by realtors as a traditional summer drop - except when you compare it to previous summers and not the month to month numbers. September just ended and I guarantee we will see some ugly numbers.

Just in my small neighbourhood of condos there were 30 open houses on the weekend and many of these units have been listed for more than 6 weeks, some for as long as 40 weeks (although you'd never know it as they are just being re-cycled because they are owned by realtors and they can put them up and take them off MLS so easily). These longer ones have also had price drops of approximately 15% and they are still not selling. This is also in a neighbourhood in which 2200 new condos will be finished in the next 14 months alone. Of which, approximately 60-70% are investor owned. Not good.

I believe we will see a correction to the tune of 20-30% overall and a return to prices of mid 2009, of course, this will depend on a neighbourhood by neighbourhood basis. The luxury market has already corrected by about 30% with many units going for the low 700's when they sold for 1100's and even brand new Peter Freed units that sold for 500 4 1/2 years ago and $700 2 years ago, are now going for mid-500's again.

A correction is happening (see Lifetime Development's latest deals on it's outstanding units and you'll understand how bad it truly is) and the only thing that might save us is renters and I just don't think there are enough of them. The immigration analysis you often hear from realtors is a load of garbage as Toronto's share of immigrants is shrinking (down to 40% from 50% 6 years ago with a shrinking total) and a small percentage come with enough money to affect our housing market in any major way.

What's hurt us - and this correction WILL cause a lot of hurt - is our lack of oversight on foreign investment. The Canadian, Ontario and City of Toronto governments have all failed miserably to protect an asset class that is just as important as any stock or company. If 60-80% of all stock purchases for any company on the TSX had come from foreign hands, the government would have been all over it and so would the media but they've turned a blind eye to this because housing is not supposed to be looked at as an investment. It is not something meant to be traded quickly or something to make a quick buck on because it's essential to the stability and civility of a society. While privately owned, housing is a social asset, something we've forgotten. All the jobs in retail, construction, design, trades, etc. that have been doing quite well and at least keeping this economy afloat are going to take a massive hit in about a year as many projects wrap up and their workers have no new projects to go to, nobody to interior design for, nobody to help fill a living room with furniture because we took 15 years worth of growth and slammed it into about 7. If you can hold on for another 8 years, you'll be fine and eventually it'll go back up again when the market's evened out. But if you bought at anytime between Jan. 2010 and now, you'll be underwater for at least the next 5 years. Longer if interest rates rise by more than 3 points.

http://resourceinvestingnews.com/28174-canada-tsx-invest.html

I don't disagree with your bubble assessment on condos, but your foreign ownership meme is flat-out wrong. Currently, 40% or so of TSX trading is 'foreign', and I'm sure every stockbroker in the city would like that to be upped substantially if it meant a corresponding rise in volume and revenue. Don't fear the foreigner - fear anyone buying overpriced assets to flip.
 
Thanks again for your thoughts, all.

Ok, let's try this a different way.

Lets say that the mortgage rate remains at 3% indefinately.
And lets say you pay 0% income tax on the revenue net of expenses (remember, principal paydown is not an "expense" for tax)
And let's say you follow your buy and hold strategy indefinately.
And lets say that prices are flat (net of inflation) indefinately, as are rents.
And your excess cashflow is used to cover all maintenance/vacancie (1% of the house value is standard for this)
And you place zero cash value on the DIY labour that you spend on this over that time.

So after 25 years, you own a $600k asset. This comes from $120k making 6.6% net of inflation, compounded for 25 years.

So then what happens? You are now earning revenue of $27k on an asset of $600k. A return of 4.5%. Not so great. And you only got here with a 3% mortgage rate guaranteed for 25 years, and no taxes.

Sure, you'll just say "well, I would re-leverage at some point". But this is exactly my point. You're only making money on this "investment" because the bank is indeed "giving it away" and you're making money on the spread between your income and that 3%, (and then ignoring the tax considerations). And they're only giving it away because that what the US Fed and the Bank of Canada are doing. And when that merry-go-round stops?

Think if it this way. Why does the bank need you? Why don't they just buy the house themselves?

Can't really argue with this analysis. One of the main reasons I would want to go into this investment is it's a chance to leverage with "free money" - that is, to borrow at inflation level. And after I put in the $120k, no further contributions are needed, and indeed it might throw off cash.

I'm being seduced by the mortgage payment / rent income ratio, and the positive cashflow.

yeah i questioned the rental potential for a $600K property.
he also provided 2 listings at $599K and $637K, but how realistic will it be that they will be sold for those prices.
i think they are intentionally underpriced for bidding wars.

They've both been on the market for a while. The one for $637k was listed in the summer, taken off, and re-listed at the end of August. Still on the market so it's overpriced. The other has been up for more about a week. I'm not sure how many bidding wars are going on right now. So I think $600k is as good of an estimate as any.

Even if they do go for more than $600k now, many in this thread will say there's a 10% correction coming (indeed, they've been predicting this since 2009...). If these bears are right, then why not wait a few months and pick up similar properties for $540k in January? I could just keep renewing the mortgage pre-approval so I'm ready. But whether these houses go for $600k or $620k or $580k, the basic play is the same.

here's something in Prime Riverdale for $1.6MM:
http://www.icx.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=12449985&PidKey=-1911494583

6 Units(3-2Bdrm,1-1Bdrm,2Bachelor). Gross Rent Approx. 70K & Expenses 23.5. Separate Hydro Meters Except Bsmt. Coin Laundry(R). Main Level Apt#1 2Level 2Bdrm=$1250, Apt#4 2Bdrm=$1200 2nd Level Apt#2 2Level 2Bdrm=$1350, Apt#3 1Bdrm=$950 3rd Level Apt#5 Bachelor=$450 Bsmt Level Apt#6 Bachelor=$550

notice that the 1 bedroom is leased for $950, and the 2-bed units for $1200-1350

More of a rooming house though, isn't it?

Are you certain that you can get a $2,000 two-bedroom rental and a $1,300 one-bedroom out of either of these properties?

Well, if I can't get $3300, then the numbers sure won't work!

But I am confident. In my experience, a good 2B apartment with backyard space will rent for over $2000 and a basement apartment will rent for at least $1000. I'm rented a 2B+den this year for $2500 and had 4+ qualified professional tenants lining up in a bidding war for the unit. A similar one nearby rented for $2800 a few months later.

This survey of $2000 apartments from Oct/11 shows mostly inferior units: http://www.thegridto.com/life/real-estate/what-can-you-get-for/3/#pager

Based on this ( http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/sea...srchType=A&minAsk=1900&maxAsk=3000&bedrooms=2 ), I am quite confident the whole house would rent for $3300.

Rents seem to be coming up in Toronto after many flat years ( http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/odpub/esub/64507/64507_2012_B01.pdf ), ( http://www.thegridto.com/life/real-estate/rental-illness/ )
 
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To UserNameToronto, if you can acquire one of those south Riverdale properties for less than $600k and fill in the vacancy with $3,300/month, I'd say that's not a bad arrangement. The only reason I questioned the potential rent figure is that I'm not convinced that those 2 properties listed previously will be able to command $3,300 a month in rent. Conversely, I'm also not convinced the rental listing of the south Riverdale house asking $3,300/month is for a sub-$600k property. Now that said, I want to believe that your figures are accurate! I just can't get myself to believe them 100% without more substantial evidence.

With regards to the property taxes, I also agree that it should be closer to $6,000/year than $3,000.
 
If your PP is $600k then your property taxes will quickly rise to $6,000 per yr.

That hasn't been my experience - even if a property is assessed higher, it takes some time to phase in, and I suspect it would take quite a while for the assessed value to get to $600k. Even so, it would add another $200/month in cost max, which still leaves loads of positive cashflow for maintenance and vacancy.

If you value your personal time at zero then I simply can't argue with you.

Depositing rent cheques and finding tenants isn't difficult in my experience. Call a plumber, call a furnace guy. Worth mucking about for a >10% return, plus positive cashflow each month. My stock portfolio takes time to manage too.

To UserNameToronto, if you can acquire one of those south Riverdale properties for less than $600k and fill in the vacancy with $3,300/month, I'd say that's not a bad arrangement. ... I just can't get myself to believe them 100% without more substantial evidence.

Fair enough. If these properties are really sell for $700k+, then the investment does not make sense. If the lower unit rents for $500 and the upper unit for $1200, then it's also a crappy deal. If mortgage rates rise immediately from 3% to 6%, there's just no way it would work. The assumptions of purchase price and rental rate are critical but then that's true of any investment.

I do appreciate the time people put into actually considering this scenario. I also think that if house prices were that far out of whack, then a duplex would be kicking out negative cashflow, as is the case with some condos right now.
 
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http://www.torontorealestateboard.c...ket_updates/news2012/nr_market_watch_0912.htm

GTA REALTORS® Release Monthly Resale Housing Figures

TORONTO, October 3, 2012 -- Greater Toronto Area (GTA) REALTORS® reported 5,879 transactions through the TorontoMLS system in September 2012. The average selling price for these transactions was $503,662, representing an increase of more than 8.5 per cent compared to last year.

The number of transactions was down by 21 per cent in comparison to September 2011. However, it is important to note that there were two fewer working days in September 2012 compared to September 2011. The majority of transactions are entered on working days. On a per working day basis, sales were down by 12.5 per cent year-over-year.

“While sales have been lower due to stricter mortgage lending guidelines, we continue to see substantial competition between buyers. The months of inventory trend remains low from a historic perspective, which explains the strong price increases we are experiencing,” said Toronto Real Estate Board President Ann Hannah.

September average selling prices were up compared to last year for all major home types. Price growth was strongest in the City of Toronto, including condominium apartments with eight per cent year-over-year growth. All benchmark home types included in the MLS® Home Price Index (MLS® HPI) experienced year-over-year price increases, with substantially stronger increases for low-rise home types.

“Barring a major change to the consensus economic outlook, home price growth is expected to continue through 2013. Based on inventory levels, price growth will be strongest for low-rise home types, including single-detached and semi-detached houses and town homes,” said TREB’s Senior Manager of Market Analysis, Jason Mercer.


Summary of TorontoMLS Sales and Average Price September 1 - 30
2012
2011
Sales
Average Price
New Listings
Sales
Average Price
New Listings
City of Toronto ("416")
2,255
$547,901
6,342
3,035
$495,721
6,155
Rest of GTA ("905")
3,624
$476,135
8,878
4,387
$441,912
8,474
GTA
5,879
$503,662
15,220
7,422
$463,916
14,629
TorontoMLS Sales & Average Price By Home Type September 1 - 30, 2012

Sales
Average Price

416
905
Total
416
905
Total

Detached
767
2,097
2,864
781,826
570,523
627,111

Yr./Yr. % Change
-27%
-16%
-19%
10%
8%
8%

Semi-Detached
273
379
652
604,963
394,265
482,487

Yr./Yr. % Change
-15%
-23%
-20%
16%
7%
12%

Townhouse
258
662
920
423,732
349,332
370,196

Yr./Yr. % Change
-17%
-15%
-16%
7%
5%
6%

Condo Apartment
934
395
1,329
377,422
283,321
349,454

Yr./Yr. % Change
-29%
-22%
-27%
8%
1%
6%
 
http://www.moneyville.ca/article/12...state-sales-down-but-prices-up-from-last-year

“It’s still a seller’s market for houses, but condos have slowed down a lot.” Condo realtor Mark Savel said he’s seeing “insane” demand for condo rentals downtown fuelled, he believes, by the fact more people who might have been able to buy a year ago are now opting to rent longer.

That’s lead to bidding wars even on rental units he said, citing one client who lost out on three different units, even though he offered $250 per month more than asking on one.


I rest my case.....
 
I rest my case.....

The evidence seems anecdotal.

I think I am seeing a slight uptick on rental prices listed on craigslist, but it's hard to say for sure.

More to the point: with falling sales, will we see a reflection of falling prices any time soon? In a correction, sales usually fall first, then prices.
 
wow. quiet out there. lowest sales since before 2004, and 10% below the 2nd lowest total of the last 9 years (2010)
and 2nd highest # of new listings in the last 9 years (2nd to 2008)
total inventory has gone from the lowest in 9 years (in January) to the highest since 2008 (in Sept)
http://guava.ca/indicators.html

Prices are always sticky in the beginning.
Sales drop, sellers are stubborn, only premium properties find a buyer.
Either it will turn around soon, or sellers will start to compromise.
 
wow. quiet out there. lowest sales since before 2004, and 10% below the 2nd lowest total of the last 9 years (2010)
and 2nd highest # of new listings in the last 9 years (2nd to 2008)
total inventory has gone from the lowest in 9 years (in January) to the highest since 2008 (in Sept)
http://guava.ca/indicators.html

Prices are always sticky in the beginning.
Sales drop, sellers are stubborn, only premium properties find a buyer.
Either it will turn around soon, or sellers will start to compromise.

If this trend continues, just wondering what are the predictions until we see significant price drops showing up in the monthly stats?
 
wow. quiet out there. lowest sales since before 2004, and 10% below the 2nd lowest total of the last 9 years (2010)
and 2nd highest # of new listings in the last 9 years (2nd to 2008)
total inventory has gone from the lowest in 9 years (in January) to the highest since 2008 (in Sept)
http://guava.ca/indicators.html

Prices are always sticky in the beginning.
Sales drop, sellers are stubborn, only premium properties find a buyer.
Either it will turn around soon, or sellers will start to compromise.

In Sept, 2010, 4844 homes were sold for under $500K. Sept, 2012, we have 3777. A decrease of 22%.
In Sept, 2010, 1466 homes were sold for over $500K. Sept, 2012, we have 2102. An increase of 43%.

Of course, the prices of homes have gone up from $427K to $503K accounting for a big part of the increase so let's compare under 400K, 2010 to under 500K, 2012, well within the 76K differential:

In Sept, 2010, 4321 homes were sold for under $400K. Sept, 2012, we have 3777 for under $500K. A decrease of 12.6%.
In Sept, 2010, 1989 homes were sold for over $400K. Sept, 2012, we have 2102 for over $500K. An increase of 5.7%.

So I think it's somewhat safe to say that we're seeing a trend towards higher sales on the top end. This is definitely skewing the "average price".
 
With our current interest rates stagnant, and appear to be stagnant in the near future, I can't see market prices going anywhere.

That being said, a price drop could be oberved if sellers ACTUALLY listed their homes at reasonable prices, as opposed to over-inflated million dollar price tags that seem to be standard in the core.
 
With our current interest rates stagnant, and appear to be stagnant in the near future, I can't see market prices going anywhere.

That being said, a price drop could be oberved if sellers ACTUALLY listed their homes at reasonable prices, as opposed to over-inflated million dollar price tags that seem to be standard in the core.

They will start dropping prices when they start realizing that the market value for their homes has reached a "top". If you're an investor, you will take a small hit in the short term in order to move your investments for a greater longer term return. Nobody wants to be caught "holding the bag" because they were the last ones out.
 

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