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Baby, we got a bubble!?

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1094562--alarm-bells-sound-over-our-house-prices?bn=1

"Britain’s venerable magazine The Economist says Canada is one of nine countries in the world where housing is overvalued by 25 per cent or more right now — and among four where prices are in line with those in the U.S. “at the peak of its bubble.”


Sigh.
That is the same article that was discussed before. However, it did include stuff from Ben Tal:

“I think the (Canadian) housing boom is over,” says Benjamin Tal, deputy chief economist at CIBC World Markets Inc. who agrees that Canada’s housing sector is “overshooting.”

“The only question now is how do we correct? I think the most likely scenario is that the housing market will stagnate over the next three to four years” until prices fall back in line.


Given tough lending standards in Canada, there are very few homeowners — less than 5 per cent — at risk of being overextended on mortgages, statistics have shown. So it would take a “trigger” like escalating interest rates to send real estate prices crashing here, and they’re unlikely to start even edging up until 2013, says Tal.

As I mentioned before, that 2013 date for the interest rate rise is what I'm hoping for, because that's when I renew my mortgage. If so, that will be pure dumb luck for me. I cashed out of the stock market gradually over 1-2 years before the big crash, to buy a house, and then lucked into awesomely low rates after that, with repeated renegotiated mortgage contracts as rates dropped. And in 2013 I might just luck out again by locking into low rates again. Sweet.

If I had kept my money in the stock market and avoided buying a house in 2007, I'd be kicking myself now.

---

Teranet has just released its September numbers.

Vancouver and Calgary dropped slightly since last month, and Toronto is now at 137.74, up 0.5% month over month, and 8.5% year over year.
 
^^^^


As I mentioned before, that 2013 date for the interest rate rise is what I'm hoping for, because that's when I renew my mortgage. If so, that will be pure dumb luck for me. I cashed out of the stock market gradually over 1-2 years before the big crash, to buy a house, and then lucked into awesomely low rates after that, with repeated renegotiated mortgage contracts as rates dropped. And in 2013 I might just luck out again by locking into low rates again. Sweet.

If I had kept my money in the stock market and avoided buying a house in 2007, I'd be kicking myself now.

---

I am smiling Eug when I read this. My favourite quote is: "It pays to be smart but its better to be lucky."
I am happy for you that your luck so far has worked to your advantage and hope it continues.

Teranet has just released its September numbers.

Vancouver and Calgary dropped slightly since last month, and Toronto is now at 137.74, up 0.5% month over month, and 8.5% year over year.[/QUOTE]
 
Teranet has just released its September numbers.

Vancouver and Calgary dropped slightly since last month, and Toronto is now at 137.74, up 0.5% month over month, and 8.5% year over year.

There was a time that when someone posted Teranet numbers on this thread, there were flurry of posts for and against the upcoming 'bubble'. Now, not even a yawn. Good old days do not seem to be on this thread anymore.

Action, and the interesting posts, now seem to be on the thread 43 Gerrard Street. Come on over there, folks.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...oom-times-appear-to-be-fading/article2262224/

ustralia’s boom times appear to be fading
andy hoffman — ASIA-PACIFIC REPORTER
VANCOUVER— From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Dec. 06, 2011 6:09PM EST
Last updated Tuesday, Dec. 06, 2011 6:44PM EST



!

The boom Down Under may soon be over.

Australia’s central bank has cut its benchmark lending rate for the second time in as many months, confirming fears that Europe’s debt crisis and a slowdown in China are threatening the resource-driven economy.

The Reserve Bank of Australia lowered its cash rate by 25 basis points to 4.25 per cent, Tuesday. That followed a similar reduction in November.
More related to this story



Much like Canada, Australia was a global leader among developed countries in weathering the 2008 financial crisis. A stable banking system, coupled with demand from China and other Asian nations for its commodities such as oil, iron ore and coal, helped Australia endure the downturn.

As U.S. and European property markets tumbled, housing prices in Australia’s major cities including Sydney, Melbourne and mining-centred Perth continued to skyrocket throughout the crisis.

The resource boom, however, pried open a deep divide that is now commonly referred to as the Australian “two-speed economy.” The economic growth of resource-heavy states such as Western Australia powered higher while more densely populated, manufacturing-driven states in the east stagnated.

Now, as manufacturing output and exports decelerate in China, demand for Australia’s commodities is under threat. Commodity prices are falling, while at the same time there are early signs of potentially significant cracks in Australia’s economic health.

Australian house prices in major cities have slipped 4 per cent in 10 months, according to property valuation firm RP Data, and as many as 18,000 small businesses are set to declare insolvency next year, according to the Council of Small Businesses in Australia.

The most recent capital expenditure survey showed that while mining investment in Australia rose sharply in the third quarter and is expected to remain strong, spending in other industries will stay weak. Sukhy Ubhi, Asia economist at London’s Capital Economics, noted in a report to clients that Australian asset prices, credit growth and the labour market “have all softened compared to earlier this year.”

In a statement, Glenn Stevens, the governor of the Reserve Bank of Australia, highlighted challenges faced by Australians outside of the resource sector, which has propelled Australia’s currency to relative parity with the U.S. dollar.

“Changed behaviour by households and the high exchange rate have had a noticeable dampening effect. The unemployment rate has increased a little since mid year, though it remains close to 5 per cent,” Mr. Stevens said.

Australia’s third quarter GDP, scheduled to be released early Wednesday, is expected to show the economy expanded at a slower pace than it did during the second quarter.

China is Australia’s largest trading partner and the Asian economic superpower is beginning to slow following a series of policy moves over the last year to rein in inflation. Last week, China’s central bank reversed course, cutting the reserve requirements for Chinese banks for the first time in nearly three years amid weakening manufacturing output.

While about 70 per cent of Australia’s exports are destined for Asia, a struggling Europe and potential collapse of the European Union was also a factor in the bank’s decision to reduce rates.

“The likelihood of a further material slowing in global growth has increased,” Mr. Stevens, said. “China’s growth has been slowing, as policy makers there had intended. Trade in Asia is now, however, seeing some effects of a significant slowing in economic activity in Europe.”

Troubles for Australia’s economy could signal comparable problems in Canada. With a similar sized population as well as a resource-heavy economy, Canada, like Australia, has a lofty property market that has yet to suffer a significant correction.



From the Globe and Mail today. Australia too is one of the most overvalued R/E areas in the world according to the Economist. It is a resource based economy (like Canada); 70% of exports to China vs. 70% of ours to US; both economies slowing somewhat and prices have now started to drop in some areas of Australia. As the article says, is this perhaps the beginning in Australia and Canada will follow suit. I believe that I read elsewhere that CREA came out with a 2% price increase prediction for next year in Canada.
 
interested; U said:
I believe that I read elsewhere that CREA came out with a 2% price increase prediction for next year in Canada.[/U]

2% increase is a lot better than a burst. Or is this the road to the beginning of a bubble burst?
 
Regarding Australia and China's bubble slowing down. I've read it was due to their tight purchasing restrictions. Such as in China, there's a restriction to owning maximum 2 units/homes per person. I think Aussie also implemented something similar. If the government in Canada did the same thing, I'm sure it will create a break to condo growth. The reason why Canada is selling so well is probably because they don't know anywhere else to park their money that is a safe enough haven.
 
I am not sure AKS that one can draw the conclusion you are about Australia. It may be true but I believe the article was drawing parallel's to 2 similar sized economies; both having a resource base and selling to larger economies nearby. If there is a true recession in Europe next year and the US does not show more than anemic growth, presumably China will have some difficulties exporting and hence slow down as well. Hence the similarity with Australia and Canada.

You may be right, I can't tell if China is exporting its own real estate bubble assuming there is one in China to Australia and Canada and other locations.
 
GTA REALTORS® Release Monthly Resale Housing Market Figures

TORONTO, December 6, 2011 -- Greater Toronto REALTORS® reported 7,092 residential transactions through the TorontoMLS® system in November – up 11 per cent in comparison to November 2010. At the same time, the number of new listings was up by 14 per cent in comparison to last year.

“We have seen strong annual sales growth through the 2011 fall market. The increase in transactions has been broad-based, with strong growth across low-rise and high-rise home types throughout the Greater Toronto Area,” said Toronto Real Estate Board (TREB) President Richard Silver. “The market has also become better supplied, with annual new listings growth outstripping that of sales. As this trend continues into 2012, we will see more balanced market conditions.”

The average price for November transactions was $480,421, representing an increase of almost 10 per cent in comparison to $437,494 in November 2010.

“Despite strong price growth this year, the housing market remains affordable in the GTA,” said Jason Mercer, TREB’s Senior Manager of Market Analysis. “The correct method of assessing affordability is to consider the share of the average household’s income that is dedicated to mortgage principal and interest, property taxes and utilities. Currently, this share remains in line with generally accepted lending guidelines. Given this positive affordability picture, average price growth is forecast to continue in 2012, albeit at a more moderate pace.”

http://www.torontorealestateboard.c...ket_updates/news2011/nr_market_watch_1111.htm
 
You may be right, I can't tell if China is exporting its own real estate bubble assuming there is one in China to Australia and Canada and other locations.

China has been exporting their bubble elsewhere. Regarding if China had a bubble. It has a very large bubble. Someone mentioned awhile back that housing price has gone from 40k to 400k within 10 years or so. Even HK is afraid of China. They've also caused HK prices to rise. Australia had it's share of Chinese invasion on properties.
http://wealthruproperty.com/Blog/20...se-investors-fuelling-aussie-property-market/
http://www.propertyobserver.com.au/...or-australian-property-baillieu/2011092551670
http://www.theage.com.au/business/p...s-of-greater-urban-sprawl-20110206-1aihd.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_property_bubble
In April 2010, the government announced amendments to policies to "ensure that foreign non-residents can only invest in Australian real estate if that investment adds to the housing stock, and that investments by temporary residents in established properties are only for their use whilst they live in Australia."[12][13]

Under the rules, temporary residents and foreign students will be:

Screened by the Foreign Investment Review Board to determine if they will be allowed to buy a property.
Forced to sell property when they leave Australia.
Punished if they do not sell by a government-ordered sale plus confiscation of any capital gain.
Required to build on vacant land within two years of purchase to stop "land banking".

Failure to do this would also lead to a government-ordered sale.[14]
 
Last edited:
China has been exporting their bubble elsewhere. Regarding if China had a bubble. It has a very large bubble. Someone mentioned awhile back that housing price has gone from 40k to 400k within 10 years or so. Even HK is afraid of China. They've also caused HK prices to rise. Australia had it's share of Chinese invasion on properties.
http://wealthruproperty.com/Blog/20...se-investors-fuelling-aussie-property-market/
http://www.propertyobserver.com.au/...or-australian-property-baillieu/2011092551670
http://www.theage.com.au/business/p...s-of-greater-urban-sprawl-20110206-1aihd.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_property_bubble



if Canada gov't had any balls, we should have done the same.
that way TO and VanC property values wouldn't be as frothy as they are.

the more locals spend on housing, the less disposable income is available for anything else.
 
I am not sure if this is the case but it would seem that in Australia there is a limited supply. I am not sure if they can build additional stock or if there are limitations to land or other issues that affect construction. In Toronto at least, there appears to be room to keep building condos at least even if not single family homes due to the "greenbelt restrictions".
 
From Re/max, condo market update:

December Market Report 2011

Most Realtors were excited to report that sales on the Toronto Real Estate Board in October were 17.5% ahead of October in 2010. My take is that October is the busiest month of the Fall Market and sales were ahead by only 2% compared to September of this year. Last year, the September to October increase was 6%! Last month we stated that preliminary October sales may well indicate a slowing of this market and final October results seemed to confirm our views. Looking forward, we are expecting November sales of 7400 units which would only be a 3% drop off from October. Our guess is for a fairly consistent market over the winter.

Currently the downtown condo market frenzy is centred on pre-construction sales. While there are too many launches to count (every downtown parking lot has a sign), the most important factor is to track the `price gap’ between this market and the resale condo market. The resale market is at about $500-550 per sq.ft. The pre-construction market is $700 per sq.ft. and higher in premium projects. In buying, Investors are betting that in four years time, the resale market will rise to pre-construction price levels. When the price gap is below $100, investors are much more confident. However with the size of the current gap, we believe that some investors will start to pull back and there will be a number of new condo projects that will not be built. Pre -construction prices should begin to level off and in some projects might actually be reduced! Rental rates, which have moved higher by over a $100 a month this year cannot support these pre-construction prices unless rental rates move higher by another $250 per month over the next four years. Is this realistic?

This month, we looked at sales in Palace Pier – 2045 Lake Shore Blvd. on the Etobicoke Waterfront. This is a premium building with great city and water views. While older, it is well maintained. The building represents tremendous value here but the problem is the high condo fees. The first sale we looked at was a one bedroom with parking, locker, balcony and lake view. At 920 sf, it sold for $280,000 in September or just $305 per sf. The same unit sold in 2005 – 6 years ago for $245,000 for a price increase of 2% per year. An identical unit on a lower floor sold for $273,000 in October. Condo fees, which include all utilities, valet parking and shuttle bus to downtown, are almost 90 cents per month. Most condo buildings with all utilities included are in the 65 cent range. The second unit we looked at was a two bedroom – two bath unit with solarium, parking and locker which sold for $342,000 in August of this year. It was 1550 sf. and sold for just $220 per sf. Again condo fees are 83 cents per sf per month. The same unit sold previously in 2007 for $318,000 and in 2002 for $264,000. The price appreciation for this unit was just under 3% per year. While high condo fees are certainly a drag on prices in this building, the primary reason for it’s being out of favour is that the condo market is being driven by younger buyers who want newer, smaller, more affordable units. However, over the longer term, we believe that when baby boomers sell their million dollar plus houses, they will need bigger sized condo units (there will be a severe shortage of these in the future) and boomers will appreciate valet parking, regardless of the cost.

RENTAL COMMENTARY:

The rental market continued to be very active, even though this is usually the slowest period of the year. Studios continue to be in short supply with only 20 units being leased for $1350 on average. Over 220 one bedroom units were leased downtown in October with rents ranging from $1500 for the basic without parking to $1750 for a one bedroom plus den and parking. Over 100 two bedroom units were also leased from a low of $1950 to a high of $2500 with den and parking. As mentioned previously, there is a shortage of three bedroom units. Only two were leased in older buildings at an average rent of $2500. Tenants are paying, on average, a 100% of list price so there is little room to negotiate in this type of market. Landlords are also being more selective with tenants and are demanding good credit scores.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/REMAX...december-market-report-2011/10150421173592899
 
I am not sure if this is the case but it would seem that in Australia there is a limited supply. I am not sure if they can build additional stock or if there are limitations to land or other issues that affect construction. In Toronto at least, there appears to be room to keep building condos at least even if not single family homes due to the "greenbelt restrictions".

They have an issue with sprawl. I guess there's no greenbelt restriction there so Chinese are buying up land and sitting on it. As they swallow up more and more land, builders can't build anymore because there's not much land left. Hence prices go up.
 
^^^Thank you for the explanation AKS.

KLB: I too read the remax reports by Jamie Johnson: The interesting dichotomy is new vs. resale prices. If resale prices in older condos are only up 3% as in Palace Pier (Note: I believe they are up more in downtown TO than Etobicoke water front) but I think his conclusion about cancelled projects and price resistance to new at $700/sq.ft. makes a lot of sense. Whether the resistance occurs at $700 or even if it goes to $800, I think the point of the blog that the difference between new and resale seems to have enlarged as much as it can and therefore price increases going forward would appear to be limited to the $150-200 difference between resale and new. Since resale is going up more slowly; presumably new will follow course and further; when it becomes apparent that the resale will not have caught new prices in3-5 years; I would assume people would be less willing to buy new for this differential, thereby resulting in either lower newer prices or cancellation of projects. It is a logical hypothesis. Whether or not it plays out in the near term (next 1-2 years or not... who knows). Certainly this is a rationale conclusion. I would be interested to hear from others who believe prices will continue to rise what is the falacy of the above postulate? I hope I will hear some responses that explain why new is going up so much more than resale (other than immigration and everyone will keep buying with no reasons put forth as to why that might be). Look forward to the responses.
 

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