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Baby, we got a bubble!?

700 sqft 1+1 @ $550/sf is $385,000. That is pretty steep. The den better be big enough to work as a second bedroom to recoup some extra rental money. There are lots of young professionals/students that share 1+1 units. I'm guessing $1000 for the bedroom and $800 for the den. That's $1800 a month compared to renting to an individual for max $1500. I think that is why 1+1 with good height and views are the most popular and the first ones that get sold in pre-construction.

$385K with 20% dp leaves $308K;
@ 4.50% 5-year term / 25-year amortization, $1800 would just barely cover the mortgage payment of $1705; with the property taxes, maintenance fees, insurance, etc of approx $700-750/m resulting in negative cashflow !
 
cdr: thanks for doing the math. i didn't realize it is that bad of a situation these days. Although 4.5% 5-years is kinda high but i understand you are probably considering the outlook for the entire 25 years. But you should understand that for an investor, they would probably not hold on to it for the entire 25 years to pay off the mortgage. So if they hold it for 2-3 years, then you can use a variable rate of about 2.1-2.2% 3-year. I think that would significant drop that monthly mortgage to about $1100/month (my monthly payment is about $1000 for 2.2% 3-years variable rate $250,000 25-years). Of course, interest rate will eventually rise, but nothing that crazy at the moment so investors are still buying.

$1100/month mortgage + $350/month maintenance (@700 sqft * $.50/sqft) + ~$200/month tax + $20/month insurance = $1670/month. Yes, I haven't include vacancy yet, but with current interest rate, some units can still break even.
 
During downturns, it's not the small units that hard to unload. It's the big luxury units that are difficult to sell.


Thanks. And today, my reno was officially completed. :) It's basically been done for weeks, but I had been waiting for one small piece to finish my bathroom.

It is generally easier to sell "smaller" condos (mid-range two bedroom or decent size one bedroom) than bigger, luxury units ... I agree. But all these super small condos these days??? Well, lets wait and see ...
 
$1100/month mortgage + $350/month maintenance (@700 sqft * $.50/sqft) + ~$200/month tax + $20/month insurance = $1670/month. Yes, I haven't include vacancy yet, but with current interest rate, some units can still break even.

Actually, maintenance fee is closer to 56 cents or more psf. It used to be around 50 cents. But with HST and inflation, it's gone up. Also every year the maintenance fee will increase.
 
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Read in the latest New Condo Guide that Chaz is offering "qualified buyers" and easy pay deposit program - you can purchase a unit with only 10% down, and they will loan you the additional 10% of the purchase price. All loan payments are deferred until the purchaser takes occupancy, so all the buyer pays is interest until that time.

Are other developers doing this?

This seems really dangerous to me (particularly for unsophisticated investors).

If market demand is supposed to be so strong, why would the developer need to do this?
 
cdr: thanks for doing the math. i didn't realize it is that bad of a situation these days. Although 4.5% 5-years is kinda high but i understand you are probably considering the outlook for the entire 25 years. But you should understand that for an investor, they would probably not hold on to it for the entire 25 years to pay off the mortgage. So if they hold it for 2-3 years, then you can use a variable rate of about 2.1-2.2% 3-year. I think that would significant drop that monthly mortgage to about $1100/month (my monthly payment is about $1000 for 2.2% 3-years variable rate $250,000 25-years). Of course, interest rate will eventually rise, but nothing that crazy at the moment so investors are still buying.

$1100/month mortgage + $350/month maintenance (@700 sqft * $.50/sqft) + ~$200/month tax + $20/month insurance = $1670/month. Yes, I haven't include vacancy yet, but with current interest rate, some units can still break even.

Dlam, one addition to your math, and one question for you.

First, you should add in the transaction costs, amortized over the 2-3 year period the investor intends to hold the property. ie land transfer taxes of approx 2%, agent fees of approx 5%, legal fees, etc

Second, consider what the carrying costs for the hypothetical buyer who purchaes in 2-3 years at the higher price and higher mortgage rate.
 
daveto: thanks for your comments

First: That is true, but I'm trying to think in an investor's mind. They see the property prices rise 10% year-over-year, that would certainly cover the transaction cost. Not that I'm condoning their decision to speculate, but I can see why investors do it. It is very risky.

Second: That's a good question, why would a buyer would to buy the unit 2-3 years down the road considering the rising cost? Financially it is probably more expensive to own compared to renting. But there are always people that think it is better to own than rent. Either for family reason for stability, or status symbol to become a home owner. People do things irrationally in financial terms, but benefit having the peace of mind not moving every so often, or getting the chance to customize their home by redoing their kitchen the way they like it, etc. Another reason why buyers would buy is because they didn't get the chance to buy pre-construction with all these investors snatching them up through VIP agents. Or buyers don't want to wait 2-3 years for their new home due to new baby on the way, or a recent move due to job change. Lots of reasons why buyers would buy. But definitely, the future buyer would probably not be an investor to rent out and wait for property value to rise.

Edit: more to add, my estimation of $550/sf is sorta on the high end for pre-construction. At CityPlace, a friend of mine bought a unit at Spectra for around $480/sf. So definitely there is room to grow to the $550/sf mark. Would I buy into CityPlace? No, but I could see money to be made there.
 
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First: That is true, but I'm trying to think in an investor's mind. They see the property prices rise 10% year-over-year, that would certainly cover the transaction cost. Not that I'm condoning their decision to speculate, but I can see why investors do it. It is very risky.

Second: That's a good question, why would a buyer would to buy the unit 2-3 years down the road considering the rising cost? ...the future buyer would probably not be an investor to rent out and wait for property value to rise.

Dlam, fair enough, I appreciate that you are playing devil's advocate in considering an investor's thought process.

If one of those investors is reading this post, here is an example, backing out a 2% per year inflation, and leaving all figures in 2011 dollars and excluding transaction costs.

2011 True Carrying cost
(ie not just cashflow, this excludes paying down principle which is a forced savings plan, and acknowledges a lost 2.5% invinc on the 20% deposit)

$9,625 annual interest = $385k @ 2.5% variable rate (best case avg for next 3 years)
$4,200 annual maintenance
$3,300 annual taxes (using 0.85% rate)
$240 annual insurance
$17365 annual true cost
$1447 monthly.

2014 True Carrying Cost in 2011 dollars
$485k purchase price (385k at 8% increase compounded for 3 years)
$21,825 annual interest = $485k @4.5%
$4,200 annual maintenance
$3,300 annual taxes
$240 annual insurance
$29,565 annual true cost
$2,464 monthly

So who is the person who will pay $2,500 to own and live in this unit and where are they today?

And if they don't exist today (since otherwise they would happily buy it today and live in it at $1000 less), then where will they come from in the next 3 years.

Just to clarify, these are just rhetorical questions for any reader to consider, I'm not asking Dlam to justify this.
 
daveto: thanks for the analysis. it will be interesting to see how interest rate will change in the next few years.

i have a dumb question, what is stopping the government from keeping the interest rate low all the time?
 
Toronto: the new Dubai

TORONTO, Canada — On the short drive from his home in the inner-suburb of Etobicoke, Joe Vaccaro counts the cranes.

These days, there are 17 sprouting along his route, many alongside the lakeshore highway that has become this city’s condo alley.

Toronto is in the midst of the longest sustained housing boom in its history, a decade-and-a-half run that’s seen housing prices more than
double and thickets of shiny condominium towers forever alter the city’s distinctive skyline.

It’s a market that’s the envy of North America, outpacing building in centers many times its size and attracting international investment that a few years ago would have migrated elsewhere, especially to the U.S.


According to Emporis — a Frankfurt-based research company that tracks multi-story buildings — there were 132 high-rises under construction in Toronto in September, far ahead of the next most-active center, Mexico City with 88, and third-place New York with 86.

(Rounding off the top five: Chicago and Miami, with 17 and 16 respectively.)

In addition, there are about another 120 projects in “pre-construction,” says Vaccaro, whose organization lobbies governments on behalf of the building and development industry.

So why is Toronto, with its dank, miserable 5-month-long winters, the hottest condo market in North America?

Among the reasons, say industry analysts and insiders, is that the Canadian economy was left relatively unscathed by the Wall Street collapse of 2008. The housing market in particular proved resilient, quickly shaking off the ripple effects of the crash south of the border.

Earlier this month, U.S.-based Forbes magazine ranked Canada as the best place on the planet to do business. The U.S. came in 10th.

As the economic hub of the country, responsible for fully 20 per cent of its GDP, Toronto benefits greatly from such global attention. “We’re seen as a safe haven for foreign investment,” said Vaccaro.

The city is also a major immigration destination. Federal immigration policies continue to attract large numbers of new Canadians, most of whom are drawn invariably to the big cities, especially Toronto. An estimated 100,000 new residents move into the greater Toronto area each year, a growth rate closer to that of cities in Asia than any in North America.

In addition, immigration rules favor migrants with assets, meaning many jump quickly into a housing market that, despite rising prices, is still a bargain by international standards.

Toronto is bordered by a ‘green belt,’ ringing the city at the edges of its vast suburbs. Imposed by the province of Ontario in 2005 largely as an environmental measure, it has helped contain suburban sprawl, forcing developers to move away from traditional housing tract development and to look skywards.

The result is a city that gleams in the late afternoon light, a magnet for big money and big names.

In May, a 9,000-square-foot penthouse sold for $28 million ($27.5 million U.S.) — a record for a Canadian condominium — to an undisclosed foreign buyer. The unit sits atop a residential complex that also houses a Four Seasons Hotel, one of the world’s foremost luxury chains.

Similar mixed-use complexes by Asian luxury giant Shangri-La (offering what it calls “private estates from $2.9 million”) and Trump (although ‘The Donald’ is reportedly only a minority stakeholder) are scheduled to open in 2012. A 53-storey Ritz-Carlton, with 159 “managed condominiums” opened its doors earlier this year.

According to the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), 1,870 condominiums sold in Toronto in September — up 23 percent from a year earlier — while the average price climbed 9 percent to $330,500.

“The Canadian housing market remains a bright spot against a backdrop of mixed headline news about the global economy,” said CREA president Gary Morse in a recent statement.

“Up to now, you open on Monday, you’re sold by Friday,” said developer Mel Pearl, with just a hint of exaggeration.

Pearl’s signature luxury project is Bisha, a hotel and residential complex in a prime downtown location across from a restaurant co-owned by hockey icon Wayne Gretzky.

But he also has a stake at the market’s other extreme, a project called Karma, which has the distinction of offering what may be the tiniest units — 277 square foot ‘studios’ — ever to go on sale in Toronto.

“They’re the smallest I’ve ever seen,” said realtor Michael Klassen but, with prices as low as $199,000, they’re being snapped up by investors. “No joke,” said Klassen. “I cannot get ahold of enough units for this building.”

The attraction for investors is simple math: with a market that in recent years has appreciated 8 to 9 percent annually, even the smallest units are an attractive investment: bought “pre-construction,” they’re worth considerably more by the time they’re built.

It’s estimated that fully 60 percent of the units sold in the Toronto market are snapped up by international investors, many from the China and South Asia.

The incessant demand has created a sales hierarchy that can be byzantine and often puts a domestic buyer interested simply in a place to live at the bottom of the list.

Klassen describes it like this: Typically, the first block of units is offered to “friends and family” of the project principals, followed by ‘VVIPs’ or preferred sales agents with steady and reliable rosters of buyers. Then come ‘VIPs’, agents with proven track records, followed by “regular brokers” and, finally, the public.

“Joe Public gets last dibs,” said CREA spokesperson Pierre Leduc, although he says the practice is no different than car manufacturers offering special edition vehicles to preferred customers first.

Of greater concern to many are fears that the market will invariably overheat and collapse.

Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney warned earlier this year that too much inventory could lead to “the possibility of an overshoot in the condo market" in Toronto.

But industry analysts have been predicting for years the end of the Toronto boom, and so far they’ve been wrong.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/canada/111027/toronto-the-new-dubai
 
daveto: thanks for the analysis. it will be interesting to see how interest rate will change in the next few years.

i have a dumb question, what is stopping the government from keeping the interest rate low all the time?

The short answer is inflation.

The medium answer is that the government must respond to the prices set by the bond market (who themselves respond to market forces such as inflation). Governments do not control the bond markets, it is the bond markets who control Governments.

The longer answer is that we are in the middle of an unprecedented period of co-ordinated global goverment intervention in markets via innovative monetary policy. There has been a lot of chatter about the moral hazard of these actions, and the eventual consequences therein. The criticism is that one cannot borrow one's way out of debt. The counterpoint is that if the new debt is applied productively, then the subsequent growth deriving from that debt funded investment will both pay back the new debt and offset the burden of the old debt. Time will tell whether Bernake and co were geniuses who saved the world or not. But either way, interest rates will not remain at artificial lows indefinately. Historical market forces have shown that 3% is an insufficient rate of return and capital will inevitably seek out more productive investments, thereby forcing mortgage borrowers to pay a higher rate in order to compete for capital.
 
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The short answer is inflation.

The medium answer is that the government must respond to the prices set by the bond market (who themselves respond to market forces such as inflation). Governments do not control the bond markets, it is the bond markets who control Governments.

The longer answer is that we are in the middle of an unprecedented period of co-ordinated global goverment intervention in markets via innovative monetary policy. There has been a lot of chatter about the moral hazard of these actions, and the eventual consequences therein. The criticism is that one cannot borrow one's way out of debt. The counterpoint is that if the new debt is applied productively, then the subsequent growth deriving from that debt funded investment will both pay back the new debt and offset the burden of the old debt. Time will tell whether Bernake and co were geniuses who saved the world or not. But either way, interest rates will not remain at artificial lows indefinately. Historical market forces have shown that 3% is an insufficient rate of return and capital will inevitably seek out more productive investments, thereby forcing mortgage borrowers to pay a higher rate in order to compete for capital.

Speaking of bond market - another one of Goldman boys in the news: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/10/31/mf-global-bankruptcy-protection.html

Leverage ...
 
Toronto: the new Dubai

TORONTO, Canada — On the short drive from his home in the inner-suburb of Etobicoke, Joe Vaccaro counts the cranes.

These days, there are 17 sprouting along his route, many alongside the lakeshore highway that has become this city’s condo alley.

Toronto is in the midst of the longest sustained housing boom in its history, a decade-and-a-half run that’s seen housing prices more than
double and thickets of shiny condominium towers forever alter the city’s distinctive skyline.

It’s a market that’s the envy of North America, outpacing building in centers many times its size and attracting international investment that a few years ago would have migrated elsewhere, especially to the U.S.


According to Emporis — a Frankfurt-based research company that tracks multi-story buildings — there were 132 high-rises under construction in Toronto in September, far ahead of the next most-active center, Mexico City with 88, and third-place New York with 86.

(Rounding off the top five: Chicago and Miami, with 17 and 16 respectively.)

In addition, there are about another 120 projects in “pre-construction,” says Vaccaro, whose organization lobbies governments on behalf of the building and development industry.

So why is Toronto, with its dank, miserable 5-month-long winters, the hottest condo market in North America?

Among the reasons, say industry analysts and insiders, is that the Canadian economy was left relatively unscathed by the Wall Street collapse of 2008. The housing market in particular proved resilient, quickly shaking off the ripple effects of the crash south of the border.

Earlier this month, U.S.-based Forbes magazine ranked Canada as the best place on the planet to do business. The U.S. came in 10th.

As the economic hub of the country, responsible for fully 20 per cent of its GDP, Toronto benefits greatly from such global attention. “We’re seen as a safe haven for foreign investment,” said Vaccaro.

The city is also a major immigration destination. Federal immigration policies continue to attract large numbers of new Canadians, most of whom are drawn invariably to the big cities, especially Toronto. An estimated 100,000 new residents move into the greater Toronto area each year, a growth rate closer to that of cities in Asia than any in North America.

In addition, immigration rules favor migrants with assets, meaning many jump quickly into a housing market that, despite rising prices, is still a bargain by international standards.

Toronto is bordered by a ‘green belt,’ ringing the city at the edges of its vast suburbs. Imposed by the province of Ontario in 2005 largely as an environmental measure, it has helped contain suburban sprawl, forcing developers to move away from traditional housing tract development and to look skywards.

The result is a city that gleams in the late afternoon light, a magnet for big money and big names.

In May, a 9,000-square-foot penthouse sold for $28 million ($27.5 million U.S.) — a record for a Canadian condominium — to an undisclosed foreign buyer. The unit sits atop a residential complex that also houses a Four Seasons Hotel, one of the world’s foremost luxury chains.

Similar mixed-use complexes by Asian luxury giant Shangri-La (offering what it calls “private estates from $2.9 million”) and Trump (although ‘The Donald’ is reportedly only a minority stakeholder) are scheduled to open in 2012. A 53-storey Ritz-Carlton, with 159 “managed condominiums” opened its doors earlier this year.

According to the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), 1,870 condominiums sold in Toronto in September — up 23 percent from a year earlier — while the average price climbed 9 percent to $330,500.

“The Canadian housing market remains a bright spot against a backdrop of mixed headline news about the global economy,” said CREA president Gary Morse in a recent statement.

“Up to now, you open on Monday, you’re sold by Friday,” said developer Mel Pearl, with just a hint of exaggeration.

Pearl’s signature luxury project is Bisha, a hotel and residential complex in a prime downtown location across from a restaurant co-owned by hockey icon Wayne Gretzky.

But he also has a stake at the market’s other extreme, a project called Karma, which has the distinction of offering what may be the tiniest units — 277 square foot ‘studios’ — ever to go on sale in Toronto.

“They’re the smallest I’ve ever seen,” said realtor Michael Klassen but, with prices as low as $199,000, they’re being snapped up by investors. “No joke,” said Klassen. “I cannot get ahold of enough units for this building.”

The attraction for investors is simple math: with a market that in recent years has appreciated 8 to 9 percent annually, even the smallest units are an attractive investment: bought “pre-construction,” they’re worth considerably more by the time they’re built.

It’s estimated that fully 60 percent of the units sold in the Toronto market are snapped up by international investors, many from the China and South Asia.

The incessant demand has created a sales hierarchy that can be byzantine and often puts a domestic buyer interested simply in a place to live at the bottom of the list.

Klassen describes it like this: Typically, the first block of units is offered to “friends and family” of the project principals, followed by ‘VVIPs’ or preferred sales agents with steady and reliable rosters of buyers. Then come ‘VIPs’, agents with proven track records, followed by “regular brokers” and, finally, the public.

“Joe Public gets last dibs,” said CREA spokesperson Pierre Leduc, although he says the practice is no different than car manufacturers offering special edition vehicles to preferred customers first.

Of greater concern to many are fears that the market will invariably overheat and collapse.

Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney warned earlier this year that too much inventory could lead to “the possibility of an overshoot in the condo market" in Toronto.

But industry analysts have been predicting for years the end of the Toronto boom, and so far they’ve been wrong.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/canada/111027/toronto-the-new-dubai

:)
 
In the meantime, the 5-year Canadian bond yield is back down to 1.42%.

Look for low fixed rates to continue.
 

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