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Baby, we got a bubble!?

I recently got a letter from One Cole the project in Regent Park and they are offering townhomes in the 500K range. Jeebus who is buying this stuff? One of our stories in the news the other day is how they had to cancel after school tutoring in Regent Park because kids were getting mugged on their way home since it is now darker earlier.

Unfortunately this revitalization project will likely not bear any major noticeable results on safety and community profile for another 5 to 10 years at least IMO. I agree 500K is steep, but given Daniel's solid rep, the same units 2 blocks west, north or south would have gone for over 600K.
 
In the US, the NRA(National Realtor Association) denied the drop, then said when it continued that it now found a floor, and more recently that prices are even rising when the consensus view(outside the NRA ) is that prices have further to fall.


hey interested ... funny you should mention NRA because everything that CREA is doing/saying this year is following their textbook.

granted, i don't think Canada will have a 'crash' like in the US where some places have lost 50% of their value from the peak; however, i still do foresee a 25% decline here in Toronto and that to me is still reasonable considering the gains achieved over the past 10 years (95 - 150% depending on who's metric is used)
 
hey interested ... funny you should mention NRA because everything that CREA is doing/saying this year is following their textbook.

granted, i don't think Canada will have a 'crash' like in the US where some places have lost 50% of their value from the peak; however, i still do foresee a 25% decline here in Toronto and that to me is still reasonable considering the gains achieved over the past 10 years (95 - 150% depending on who's metric is used)

Help. I need a dose of valium. Condo George, where are you when I need you?
 
Condo George has been absent for the last while. But he says he is so busy he has to engage other agents so clearly his Asian investors do not share cdr nor my pessimism.
I will go again and say that I believe we may retest 2008 and maybe even go back as far as 2007 prices but I my belief is we have probably 10-max. 15% possibly more to go. I do not think it will be exceed that. Not sure if cdr is referring to another 25% on top of the 4-5% already downtown TO is down on average since May 2010 or if he means 20% more to go. Either way, I don't see it going down that far.
 
Condo George has been absent for the last while. But he says he is so busy he has to engage other agents so clearly his Asian investors do not share cdr nor my pessimism.
I will go again and say that I believe we may retest 2008 and maybe even go back as far as 2007 prices but I my belief is we have probably 10-max. 15% possibly more to go. I do not think it will be exceed that. Not sure if cdr is referring to another 25% on top of the 4-5% already downtown TO is down on average since May 2010 or if he means 20% more to go. Either way, I don't see it going down that far.



i think we may are on a similar page.
my 25% reduction is from the peak, which i think was ~$500 PSF for resale.
i hesitate to use pre-con as reference b/c their prices have skewed so far from reality.

IIRC 2007 prices were around $350-400 PSF, so $500 - 25% = $375 PSF.
 
I think resale will be 400-425/sq.ft. for relatively newish condos(within the past 5-10 years) on resale from $450-500 today. Older units may dip below $400. I believe$550-600 avg. downtown new condo will trend down to $450-550 with an average of about $500. I agree cdr we both think about the same range. I am just slightly more optimistic/hopeful/ or may just naive than you.
 
Re: Interested - what do I believe will happen in China?

In short word, an extended bubble as much as the government can be stretched, no collapse, unless there is a massive financial crisis that the China government is unable to prevent.

An insightful article

Summary:

...But China’s phenomenon is unique for at least four reasons:

1) A sustained negative real interest rate has led to a falling demand for money and rising appetite for speculation. Greed and inflation fears are working together to form unprecedented speculative demand for property.

2) A massive amount of gray income is seeking safe haven. China’s gray income of various sorts could be around 10% of GDP. In an environment of rising inflation with a depreciating dollar — the traditional safe haven — China’s rising property market is becoming a preferred place to park this money.

3) Few people in China have experienced a property bubble. The property crash in the 1990s touched a small segment of society, such as foreigners and state-owned enterprises. Geographically, it was restricted to the country’s freewheeling zones in Hainan, Guangdong and Shanghai. Most people didn’t even know there was a property crash. This ignorance has led to a lack of fear that’s now turbo-charging greed.

4) Speculators think the government won’t let property prices fall. They correctly surmise that local governments rely on property deals for money and do all they can to prop up prices. But their faith in government omnipotence is misplaced. At the end of the day, the market is bigger than the government. The government can delay, but not abolish, market forces. Nevertheless, faith in government is replacing fears of a downside, and speculative demand will continue to grow as long as credit is available….keeping interest rates low will only worsen the nation’s bubble problem. Periodic credit tightening and crackdowns on speculation won’t work because they are not taken seriously and never last….


For the 4th point I have my belief in the government not because I have "the faith" but simply the corrupted communism system will not allow any harm happen to their benefits unless they are not capable to prevent, more specific a small group of people on the government positions are the ultimate beneficiaries in such economic activities, ie. "commission" from auction of the land, or from giving any sort of permissions, or investing as the ventral capital in any R/E building projects..using your imagination as much as possible.

And, other couple of points that I have -

- cost of holding a property is low. People pay off at least 30 to 50% for down payment, even cash in all when purchase. There is no property tax until this year, the China government just announced to introduce it as a new tax, but nowhere comparable as high as Canada's. Speculators can afford to have the empty units and that is why in the article it referred the quantity bubble.

- local history background for people's afforadability. Historically no one had private property until late 80s. We lived in our apartment by paying the government a very low "rental premium" (ie. $10 CAD/mth). In early 90's the government introduced the free trade housing market and offered us to buy the home we lived in at a price as low as 1/10th of the market price at then (ie $3K CAD for a $30K CAD value home). So our parents generation got their first initial home for almost free. When their kids get married recent years, yes the price has raised to 10 times ie $300K CAD. However since the social norm that parents pay off (at least big proportion of) their children's home (since only one child in the family these days).The 4 parents and the 2 kids all putting their savings together towards the new mortgage loan. So for instance my cousin who is in her late 20's, who got married 3 years ago and purchased a $300K CAD home, the couple has already paid off their mortgage loan as of today. My point is people actually can afford to have a second home (my parents generations it is common they have a second, or third property) or my generation (as my cousin's situation currently).

At last an interesting phenomenal, people around the world talk about a lot R/E bubble in China. When we bring up the topic to our own parents, aunts and uncles, no one listens to you ie not even sell off some of the properties to easy their minds off. Well, you can say it is because they are mind-blinded...um..but for all of them? No one can predict what will happen exactly, we will see eventually.
 
Thank you X2 for that explanation.
Makes alot of sense actually. I understand about the next generation as well.
I think your assumptions may in fact be correct.
I appreciate that I am applying a Western Model thinking to a nascent property market (only 30 years old) and maybe it will continue to grow as you say.
I still have my doubts but your explanation has certainly allowed me to get a "bigger picture" of the rationale applied there.
 
recent steps by the Chinese gov't to restrict property ownership by foreigners will help limit further inflation of the bubble, as their worry of QE2 money flooding emerging markets are quite valid.

also, the requirements for increased down payment will help too.
 
Correct, plus the property tax I mentioned previously, the just increased interest rate by .25%, and not only foreigner but also the no resident of the city is not allowed for mortgage loan in the city. Though people are still skeptical all of these will have effect.


Chinese Twitterer @orangeking forwarded me a graphic from one of the main Chinese real estate websites showing that the State Council and Premier Wen Jiabao have made numerous pronouncements since 2004 about cooling off the real estate market, all to no effect. Chinese people are conditioned to be very cynical, and they are usually proven correct. We will find out if this time is different.
 
The thing that worries me about all this is essentially one is relying on masses investing not from economic sense but from lack of other investments. I have very little confidence the government can manage these effects successfully over the long term. If there are misteps along the way, and if wealth starts to erode, my suspicion is despite the reasons put forth in the very good arguments, panic would set in and since there is poor correleation between value and return, it could drop very quickly and massively.
My point is the economic fundamental underpinnings for these prices are not there. If wealth erodes, even 10-15% in R/E, I fear it may very quickly turn into the classic "rats deserting a sinking ship" with everyone heading for the exits at once.
And even the wealthy don't like investments that make nothing and are plummeting in value. Witness the US with "strategic defaults on mortgages".
As well, as pointed out: the Chinese do not have experience with a down property market. How will they react if faced with a marked decrease in their net worth, since so much is tied up in real estate. Means it is very vulnerable to a severe correction.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...dvance-for-third-month/article1799092/resales advance for third month
STEVE LADURANTAYE
Globe and Mail Update
Published Monday, Nov. 15, 2010 9:35AM EST
Last updated Monday, Nov. 15, 2010 9:50AM EST

Canada's resale housing market improved for the third month in a row in October, although prices came precariously close to declining compared to the same time last year. The average resale price was $337,842, which the Canadian Real Estate Association said was “up less than a percentage point compared to one year ago,” although prices are up slightly from September.




Prices peaked in May, when they hit $346,881.

Sales increased by 4.6 per cent over September, CREA said, but were down 21.6 per cent from last October, which was the busiest October on record.

“National sales activity is now running almost halfway between the highs and lows posted between late 2008 and late 2009,” said Gregory Klump, CREA’s
chief economist, in a statement. This suggests that the Canadian housing market may be starting to normalize. After the wild rollercoaster ride that many housing
and stable market conditions are something that many buyers and sellers will likely welcome.”

The number of months of inventory - how long it would take to sell all the houses on the market given the current pace of sales - dropped to 6.2 months from 6.5 months in September.
“The continuation of low interest rates is supporting sales activity, which has been improving over the past few months in a number of major markets including Vancouver,” said Georges Pahud, CREA’s president, in a statement.

CREA slashed its home-sales forecast two weeks ago, saying activity will decline this year and next. National sales activity is expected to fall 4.9 per cent this year and sales will tumble another 9 per cent next year.

Prices are expected to fare better – ending this year 3.1 per cent higher than they started before falling 1.3 per cent next year.

Lackluster economic and job growth, muted consumer confidence, and the resumption of interest rate hikes next year are the main reasons behind the lower sales forecast. Private sector forecasts vary for next year, with some banks expecting prices to fall as much as 10 per cent in the next year.

"The last three months of data suggest that a trough in resale housing activity may have formed earlier than we expected," said Toronto-Dominion Bank senior economist Pascal Gauthier.



"Heading into 2011, sales and prices appear better supported than we last forecast in September. We will be making an updated forecast available in the next few days. The stabilization and ensuing uptick in resale housing activity should also help to limit the downside risk to the overall economy. On the flipside, subdued employment and income growth in the quarters ahead should act to cap the housing market’s upside in 2011. "

Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., meanwhile, said Monday that housing starts for 2011 will slow to “levels consistent with demographic fundamentals.”

The federal agency forecasted that housing starts will range between 176,700 and 194,700 units 2010, and between 148,000 to 202,300 units next year.

“High employment levels and low mortgage rates will continue to support demand for new homes in 2011,” CMHC chief economist Bob Dugan said. “Nevertheless, housing starts will decrease to levels are more in-line with long term demographic fundamentals next year.”


From the Globe and Mail website:

I discount alot of the CREA spin: They finally are acknowledging the price peaked in May 2010. There is some hope in the decline in inventory.
While the Banks too have a vested interest to report positive data, the suggestion of a trough forming would be very good news though it is clearly too early to tell. Not sure I buy this. Remember there is a normal pickup in Sept and October before it quiets again until Feb so we shall see if this truly is a trough or a temporary blip.
 
Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., meanwhile, said Monday that housing starts for 2011 will slow to “levels consistent with demographic fundamentals.”

The federal agency forecasted that housing starts will range between 176,700 and 194,700 units 2010, and between 148,000 to 202,300 units next year.

All the supply shortage that CREA and TREB keep pushing is in contrast to what CMHC has to say.
“High employment levels and low mortgage rates will continue to support demand for new homes in 2011,” CMHC chief economist Bob Dugan said. “Nevertheless, housing starts will decrease to levels are more in-line with long term demographic fundamentals next year.”


If housing starts are going to slow to levels consistant with demographic fundamentals, does that mean they've been overbuilding all this time as many have alluded to?
 
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