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Aqua (and forum groupthink)

For my part (and I think several others) it was just a bit of fun to mock the credentials of the Emporis team... the award given Aqua was based on subjective personal taste of 'enthusiasts' rather than peer groups or such. And so I think it's fair to question how much cache comes with winning such an award. And we of similar qualification can voice our disagreement... whats wrong with having a bit of fun at the expense of some anonymous group in the virtual world?

While there are a few architects on the all-male Emporis jury, the others appear to be either tall building fanboys from small towns on the loose in the big city, guys with cameras and frequent flyer points, and people with no stated credentials other than the fact that they're male and have a pulse. I agree with you that it is perfectly reasonable to question how much prestige is bestowed by "winning" one of their little prizes. The Emporis website boasts that these senior editors have "strong relationships to decision makers and industry-leading firms" and one can only guess what that means or what bearing it may have on their decisions.

https://community.emporis.com/pu/md/se/?lng=3
 
This is getting OT, but in any case, the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH) has a far more exact criteria for what constitute an award winning project than the Emporis Award:
http://www.ctbuh.org/Events/Awards/tabid/73/language/en-GB/Default.aspx

Looking at the historical winners for Emporis, I think it's a bit of a hit and miss - and above all I am not sure what the overarching rationale is (say, between Taipei 101, Calatrava's Turning Torso and Wall Centre). Whatever criteria is given seems very "fluffy"

The aim of the Emporis Skyscraper Award is to throw the spotlight onto buildings that represent the best of our human culture. Buildings that stimulate our aesthetic pleasure and curiosity, and express the desire to exceed the boundaries of what has already been achieved, but which at the same time strive for the harmony that allows a building to be effective both for itself and within its surroundings.

To guarantee that the best choice is made, Emporis calls on the best it has to offer: its contributors. They are skyscraper lovers and probably the world's most experienced experts on high-rises. During the nomination phase, Emporis editors select what they deem to be the most fascinating skyscraper projects of the year. If a skyscraper receives more than one vote, it is automatically nominated. The final selection is then performed by the Emporis Awards jury, composed of the Emporis senior editors. This all goes to ensure the editorial independence of the award, and that no spectacular new project in any year is overlooked when choosing the Skyscraper of the Year.

AoD
 
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I think that what has happened here is a classic case of clique-ism. I've seen it many times in many places. A group of people who have a common interest (in this case, Toronto high-rises) are engaged in a continual conversation about that topic, and eventually the more frequent posters form an "in-group" with self-perceived higher standards than those plebians not in the group. At the same time, the group's accepted opinions about whatever their common interest is, become ever more rarefied and out of touch with the mainstream views. Eventually the in-group's commonly accepted positions become so divergent from the wider norms that they conclude that they, and only they, are perceptive enough to see the truth, while everyone else is an ignorant idiot. This process seems to eventually happen all the time, whatever the common interest is.

Has anybody considered that perhaps the committee knows what they are doing?
I think the criticism of the Emporis committee is that it's basically Urban Toronto with delusions of grandeur.
 
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Has anybody considered that perhaps the committee knows what they are doing? The common opinion here -- which is the opposite of almost every informed opinion I have seen elsewhere -- is that Aqua's reputation is undeserved, that it is "a box with delusions of grandeur". I think that instead of Aqua being so bad, this is a case of the UT in-group stroking their own egos by stating that they have a greater appreciation of, and knowledge of, architecture than the rest of the world does, including this committee. This type of thinking is a fairly standard example of tribalism, where some in-group, in this case the UT clique, considers itself self-evidently better than the corresponding out-group. This thinking is also seen in the way that newcomers to UT are attacked for holding opinions different than the standard UT beliefs.

Nicely observed - sometimes the obvious gets overlooked, but you've nailed it - we have a different design culture here and look at things differently. Toronto isn't a simulacrum of Chicago, we're more about legibility than superficial flash, and it is inevitable that silly Aqua gets a rough ride.
 
Nicely observed - sometimes the obvious gets overlooked, but you've nailed it - we have a different design culture here and look at things differently. Toronto isn't a simulacrum of Chicago, we're more about legibility than superficial flash, and it is inevitable that silly Aqua gets a rough ride.

Nothing could be further from the truth: witness the near universal lamenting of the lack of "superficial flash" on the new opera house, by both critics and those on this board.

There are certainly not a lot of buildings in Chicago that even come close to our ("breaking out of the box") City Hall, the OCAD building, the AGO or ROM expansions or even some of our recent social housing. Torontonians crave more than 'legibility" and thankfully, we have are getting more and more of it.
 
Nothing could be further from the truth: witness the near universal lamenting of the lack of "superficial flash" on the new opera house, by both critics and those on this board.

Yes, it happens all the time when I'm at the opera - embittered archiporn wraiths jumping out of their seats and wailing "Where's all the superficial flash?" Poor dears.

There are certainly not a lot of buildings in Chicago that even come close to our ("breaking out of the box") City Hall, the OCAD building, the AGO or ROM expansions or even some of our recent social housing. Torontonians crave more than 'legibility" and thankfully, we have are getting more and more of it.

Of the examples you give, the expressive two-tower City Hall hasn't turned out to be the most practical arrangement of interior spaces for government offices, though. And the promise of the AGO's big exterior statement - the Galleria Italia - bears no relationship to the rectilinear galleries delivered in the rest of the addition; the Galleria's big wood beams even block views of the city when you look along it. The ROM's interior galleries, by contrast, match what the exterior promises, so I don't see a disconnect there. And OCAD's addition is an innovative solution to their space needs, the classrooms are reasonably practical, and I think the exterior/interior work well together. We've gained buildings designed by many interesting and famous foreign architects over the years, and they're not immune from being judged by the same high standards of practicality and legibility we have come to expect.
 
I can see that creative license was applied to the word "legibility" for the sake of this dicussion, but I'm a little perplexed by your use of the term "wraiths".... Are you foretelling even more gloom at the opera house?
 
Superficial flash is lifeblood for archiporn wraiths. The idea that there's near universal lamenting because our opera house lacks it is itself pure opera buffa.
 
Wow, don't we love a dust-up here? Make a generalization, and create a pile-up on the information superhighway.

I don't think Mongo's elitist cliques really exist quite as he (?) believes they do: simply posting frequently on UT does not make one part of a singular elite group. While it is obvious that many members have found kinship at UT with others through shared moral or aesthetic convictions, there is no single power group of architectural automatons here who agree on every mullion or lack thereof. Simply posting frequently does not boost one into a rarified group, and where friendships have struck up here (I can tell you from personal experience) one does not have to share the same conclusion on every project to maintain them. Sure some members here present their arguments more forcefully than others, but no-one should believe that there is an elite, formalized, and therefore powerful, UT party, nor a party line that needs to be towed.

42
 
I think that what has happened here is a classic case of clique-ism. I've seen it many times in many places. A group of people who have a common interest (in this case, Toronto high-rises) are engaged in a continual conversation about that topic, and eventually the more frequent posters form an "in-group" with self-perceived higher standards than those plebians not in the group. At the same time, the group's accepted opinions about whatever their common interest is, become ever more rarefied and out of touch with the mainstream views. Eventually the in-group's commonly accepted positions become so divergent from the wider norms that they conclude that they, and only they, are perceptive enough to see the truth, while everyone else is an ignorant idiot. This process seems to eventually happen all the time, whatever the common interest is.

Has anybody considered that perhaps the committee knows what they are doing? The common opinion here -- which is the opposite of almost every informed opinion I have seen elsewhere -- is that Aqua's reputation is undeserved, that it is "a box with delusions of grandeur". I think that instead of Aqua being so bad, this is a case of the UT in-group stroking their own egos by stating that they have a greater appreciation of, and knowledge of, architecture than the rest of the world does, including this committee. This type of thinking is a fairly standard example of tribalism, where some in-group, in this case the UT clique, considers itself self-evidently better than the corresponding out-group. This thinking is also seen in the way that newcomers to UT are attacked for holding opinions different than the standard UT beliefs.

Arriving late to this discussion, but I totally agree with Mongo. The frequency with which some posters make their views known, and the support which they give each other's similar views, does create a 'norm', and I think when opposing views arise, the 'strength in numbers' feeling emboldens some of these frequent posters to roundlly dismiss opposing views, sometimes using the "newness" of the new poster to the board as a reason to discredit the option. Rather than just engage in healthy debate and accept the differing point of view as a valid opinion, these posters definitely sometimes attack the poster with a different opinion personally or crazily accuse the poster of having some vested interest in the project or, horrors, being a real estate agent. (which honestly should, if anything, give the person MORE credibility if they're actually in the industry).
 
I don't think what's being described is clique-ism: it's simply banding together when done politely, and ganging up when not. UT has rules that are meant to keep the discussion on the right side of civl vs. uncivil, and when members cross the line they pay for it depending on how far they have gone, with banning as the ultimate threat for transgressors. Clearly ban-worthy behaviour is the exception around here, while banding together or ganging up is more common in the threads of the more polarizing projects. We Mods are reticent to shut down a dust-up unless there is a clear violation of UT rules, so if you're going to present a view here, you may be called out for it by others, sometimes in unkind ways.

I know we will always have divergent opinions here, so it's always my hope that they be handled with equanimity and some amount of respect, or failing that, a good one-liner. Fight back with a good attitude and good humour, and everyone wins.

42
 
I agree with Mongo. I've pulled out of the forum for months because I found that either I agreed with the pre-formed opinions of the clique that clearly dominate or I was attacked. And I don't agree that you moderators do a good job when so-called discussions start. There frequently aren't any discussions- you present a point of view and, if someone from the clique disagrees, you're put down and dismissed. There is no discussion. If fact, many members do not seem to have any idea how to debate issues and have no real interest in engaging you in a real discussion about aesthetic issues. The latter are quite subjective and often based on feeling. I don't appreciate being told that I'm wrong when we are discussing something subjective. Also, if you disagree, tell me why, from your point of view, and I'll gladly engage with you. However, I will not if I am insulted or put down. I've complained about it before and the response from the clique is patronizing. It's not easy for someone new to get involved in an ongoing discussion with some history to it, but you guys tend not to treat new people well and then they're gone.
 
I agree with Mongo. I've pulled out of the forum for months because I found that either I agreed with the pre-formed opinions of the clique that clearly dominate or I was attacked. And I don't agree that you moderators do a good job when so-called discussions start. There frequently aren't any discussions- you present a point of view and, if someone from the clique disagrees, you're put down and dismissed. There is no discussion. If fact, many members do not seem to have any idea how to debate issues and have no real interest in engaging you in a real discussion about aesthetic issues. The latter are quite subjective and often based on feeling. I don't appreciate being told that I'm wrong when we are discussing something subjective. Also, if you disagree, tell me why, from your point of view, and I'll gladly engage with you. However, I will not if I am insulted or put down. I've complained about it before and the response from the clique is patronizing. It's not easy for someone new to get involved in an ongoing discussion with some history to it, but you guys tend not to treat new people well and then they're gone.

Yes true,
Also true,
Very true,
Oh yes! VERY TRUE,
And..... true.

Keep in mind people: Just because someone is new to the thread, does not mean they are new to architecture. Only a buffoon would equate the number of posts with perceived knowledge of the subject.

Perhaps one of those newbies is Peter Clewes himself. Even he had to post for a first time somewhere.
 

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