Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[mtlmark]

The main issue with comparing the UK's former privatization model and the open access model that most of the other EU countries use to Alto is 2 fold;

1) the government owns the infrastructure, regardless if there is an infrastructure operator or not
2) if the contract is up, anyone can bid on the proposed service

If you look at what the government has on table since Alghabra was transport minister, Cadence/Alto gets a high speed network and the keys to the corridor, both for 30 years.
While the thought of bringing in a second or third entity to run Montreal-Toronto-Ottawa high speed to compete with Alto would be of interest for the consumer, the reality is if the government wanted multiple operating entities, they would have done so from the get-go. We will not have the option of riding Renfe, Inoui(budget TGV service, part of SNCF), SNCF between Paris and Madrid, nor will we have the option of Frecciarossa, Inoui or SNCF between Paris and Marseille.

To have multiple operators, would require government oversight or some body more competent then Transport Canada to evaluate several metrics to judge if the franchisees are performing as per contract. Also, the contracts that the EU and UK awards/awarded are shorter then 3 decades long, thus if an operator does not comply, the government simply renews the tender at contract's end. The 3P is not likely to generate competition or require government intervention unless something goes pear shaped. I do not like the length of this operational contract or believe that private industry left to its own devices is the best. However, we finally got a government to do something about passenger rail in a big way. Hopefully, something positive will come of this.

The oddest thing will be to see VIA cease to be in the corridor altogether.

Mark

 

[micheal_can]

The main issue with comparing the UK's former privatization model and the open access model that most of the other EU countries use to Alto is 2 fold;

1) the government owns the infrastructure, regardless if there is an infrastructure operator or not
2) if the contract is up, anyone can bid on the proposed service

If you look at what the government has on table since Alghabra was transport minister, Cadence/Alto gets a high speed network and the keys to the corridor, both for 30 years.
While the thought of bringing in a second or third entity to run Montreal-Toronto-Ottawa high speed to compete with Alto would be of interest for the consumer, the reality is if the government wanted multiple operating entities, they would have done so from the get-go. We will not have the option of riding Renfe, Inoui(budget TGV service, part of SNCF), SNCF between Paris and Madrid, nor will we have the option of Frecciarossa, Inoui or SNCF between Paris and Marseille.

To have multiple operators, would require government oversight or some body more competent then Transport Canada to evaluate several metrics to judge if the franchisees are performing as per contract. Also, the contracts that the EU and UK awards/awarded are shorter then 3 decades long, thus if an operator does not comply, the government simply renews the tender at contract's end. The 3P is not likely to generate competition or require government intervention unless something goes pear shaped. I do not like the length of this operational contract or believe that private industry left to its own devices is the best. However, we finally got a government to do something about passenger rail in a big way. Hopefully, something positive will come of this.

The oddest thing will be to see VIA cease to be in the corridor altogether.

Mark

The way you describe it sounds exactly the way ALTO will be. The federal government will own the tracks. For 30 years after it opens, Cadence will operate it. After 30 years, another company may operate it.

 

[Bordercollie]

The main issue with comparing the UK's former privatization model and the open access model that most of the other EU countries use to Alto is 2 fold;

1) the government owns the infrastructure, regardless if there is an infrastructure operator or not
2) if the contract is up, anyone can bid on the proposed service

If you look at what the government has on table since Alghabra was transport minister, Cadence/Alto gets a high speed network and the keys to the corridor, both for 30 years.
While the thought of bringing in a second or third entity to run Montreal-Toronto-Ottawa high speed to compete with Alto would be of interest for the consumer, the reality is if the government wanted multiple operating entities, they would have done so from the get-go. We will not have the option of riding Renfe, Inoui(budget TGV service, part of SNCF), SNCF between Paris and Madrid, nor will we have the option of Frecciarossa, Inoui or SNCF between Paris and Marseille.

To have multiple operators, would require government oversight or some body more competent then Transport Canada to evaluate several metrics to judge if the franchisees are performing as per contract. Also, the contracts that the EU and UK awards/awarded are shorter then 3 decades long, thus if an operator does not comply, the government simply renews the tender at contract's end. The 3P is not likely to generate competition or require government intervention unless something goes pear shaped. I do not like the length of this operational contract or believe that private industry left to its own devices is the best. However, we finally got a government to do something about passenger rail in a big way. Hopefully, something positive will come of this.

The oddest thing will be to see VIA cease to be in the corridor altogether.

Mark

The current corridor will be retained by VIA. At least that was my understanding.

 

[roger1818]

The current corridor will be retained by VIA. At least that was my understanding.

I think you mean the current corridor will be retained by CN. VIA owns very little of the current corridor.

Alto will be taking over operations of VIA's current corridor services to improve integration (just like VIA asked CP Rail if they could take over their passenger services in the 70's to allow for better integration). At this point it is unclear who will own the ROWs that VIA does own (or even the new ROWs).

I think anyone who thinks operators will be clamoring at the bit to offer competing services on Alto's corridor anytime soon are a bit delusional.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If they are starting in Quebec, why not use the opportunity to upgrade the Exo Commuter Rail in Montreal.

 

[Thaboss]

If they are starting in Quebec, why not use the opportunity to upgrade the Exo Commuter Rail in Montreal.

Why not ask Québec to care more about EXO....

I rather have alto be hyper focused on its mandate. When you're doing something for the first time its best not to complicate matters...

 

[nfitz]

If they are starting in Quebec, why not use the opportunity to upgrade the Exo Commuter Rail in Montreal.

Because with Exo ridership dropping off the cliff, it's more likely they'll be looking at shrinking it, rather than expanding it.

 

[ARG1]

Why not ask Québec to care more about EXO....

I rather have alto be hyper focused on its mandate. When you're doing something for the first time its best not to complicate matters...

California HSR has proven that a lot of good can happen when you coordinate with local railroads to provide large scale improvements to multiple systems, such as what happened with the electrification of CalTrain. Coordinating construction efforts in such a way that you can use another project to your own benefit is an amazing way to save money and deliver more improvements. Exo (and GO) are in a perfect position to get a lot done in improving its network if they coordinated with Alto. That being said however, the onus is entirely on the ARTM to not be steaming pile of horse dung located near the entrance of a skunk den for once in its existence, and I'll bet money on them not doing that.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why not ask Québec to care more about EXO....

I rather have alto be hyper focused on its mandate. When you're doing something for the first time its best not to complicate matters...

Because with Exo ridership dropping off the cliff, it's more likely they'll be looking at shrinking it, rather than expanding it.

California HSR has proven that a lot of good can happen when you coordinate with local railroads to provide large scale improvements to multiple systems, such as what happened with the electrification of CalTrain. Coordinating construction efforts in such a way that you can use another project to your own benefit is an amazing way to save money and deliver more improvements. Exo (and GO) are in a perfect position to get a lot done in improving its network if they coordinated with Alto. That being said however, the onus is entirely on the ARTM to not be steaming pile of horse dung located near the entrance of a skunk den for once in its existence, and I'll bet money on them not doing that.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/3-exo-commuter-train-lines-closure-artm-1.7320278

Wow, you guys are right. 4 million people and can't even get decent midday service. As much as we complain about Metrolinx...yikes.

Sorry to derail this thread. Hope the construction goes well for Alto

 

[Thaboss]

California HSR has proven that a lot of good can happen when you coordinate with local railroads to provide large scale improvements to multiple systems, such as what happened with the electrification of CalTrain. Coordinating construction efforts in such a way that you can use another project to your own benefit is an amazing way to save money and deliver more improvements. Exo (and GO) are in a perfect position to get a lot done in improving its network if they coordinated with Alto. That being said however, the onus is entirely on the ARTM to not be steaming pile of horse dung located near the entrance of a skunk den for once in its existence, and I'll bet money on them not doing that.

You make an excellent point tbf. It would be ideal if anything for that to happen but I suspect politics will very much get in the way of cooperation or at least delay things if a certain provincial party gets into power next year in quebec.