Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[Sauga89]

The federal press release is here:

Full speed ahead: Ottawa–Montreal chosen as starting point for Alto High-Speed Rail

The Alto High-Speed Rail project will be one of Canada’s largest infrastructure investments in decades. Building the first high-speed rail network in Canada will turbocharge our economy, create well-paying jobs, support Canadian businesses and industry while delivering to Canadians the...

www.canada.ca

From the above:

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*** skipping the quotes ***

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Here's the landing page for the Alto public consutlations:

Public Consultation

The train network will offer frequent, reliable and faster service thanks to modern, accessible and environmentally-friendly trains.

www.altotrain.ca

They provided the schedule and locations for consultations next year.

 

[Bojaxs]

Given the ridership, and the numbers traveling between Ontario and Quebec City, I wouldn't think it would be worthwhile. More likely I think would be a transfer in Laval.

With all due respect, but I feel as though this is the wrong mentality to have towards this type of project.

Why would we be discussing current travelling trends between Ottawa and Quebec City? Would a direct HSR connection between the two cities not change current travelling patterns?

 

[kEiThZ]

Did I misunderstand the announcement? The minister said Laval can be added to the Ottawa-Montreal segment.

 

[Mihairokov]

Stirling is the most interesting location in Ontario here. Why Stirling and not Belleville? Why Stirling if Madoc already has a meeting? If they're following the Highway 7 routing it seems unnecessary to be in Stirling, so it makes me wonder if they're looking at a route that's between Highway 7 and 401, but blasting through Trent Hills seems needless.

 

[ARG1]

4 stops from Rideau Centre is "really nowhere"?

Sure bud.

You can tell who uses transit and who doesn't with pronouncements like this.

Then perhaps your transit user detector needs some fine tuning. Sure it's "only 4 stops", but what differentiates a train from an airport is that it can go anywhere and doesn't have to deal with the limitations of air travel which needs a large enough land that is close enough to be travelled, but not too close as to be super noisy and inconvenience residents.

Tremblay might only be "4 stops", but frankly it's not a good feeling when you're leaving a train hall only to be met with a taxi loop, a bit of parking, Highway 417, and your only option to get anywhere is to get on a train that will then take you Downtown. Compared to the experience of leaving Union or GC and just being there in downtown where you can find anything and everything from food to other services, the difference is night and day.

 

[GrayLake]

The thinking is probably that if you are going to have to build a very expensive brand new rail line, possibly tunnelled, between Montreal and Laval for the service to Quebec City, might as well also use that line which will be HSR grade for trains coming into Montreal from Ottawa rather than building a second HSR grade rail line from the west.

The question is now whether it will go all the way downtown into a tunnel or if the station will be north of Mont Royal.

 

[kEiThZ]

Then perhaps your transit user detector needs some fine tuning. Sure it's "only 4 stops", but what differentiates a train from an airport is that it can go anywhere and doesn't have to deal with the limitations of air travel which needs a large enough land that is close enough to be travelled, but not too close as to be super noisy and inconvenience residents.

Tremblay might only be "4 stops", but frankly it's not a good feeling when you're leaving a train hall only to be met with a taxi loop, a bit of parking, Highway 417, and your only option to get anywhere is to get on a train that will then take you Downtown. Compared to the experience of leaving Union or GC and just being there in downtown where you can find anything and everything from food to other services, the difference is night and day.

It's no different that suburban HSR stations in many other parts of the world. Y'all are going to have to get used to the fact that not every train station will be in the downtown core. And given Ottawa's situation, it really doesn't make sense today to spend the money to change that. A quick 4 stop ride is just fine. And in my experience, yes, the people who complain about where Tremblay station is, are rarely transit users.

 

[kEiThZ]

The consultations include Vankleek Hill and Saint-Eustache, which are roughly along the route I sketched out, but not Lachute, which actually has the railway running through it. And I don't know what to make of consultations in both Madoc and Stirling, but not Tweed. Maybe they just drew circles so they are not too far from anyone in the general vicinity.

I don't think you can really draw conclusions on routing yet. Doesn't seem like they are necessarily through Laval. They may be going to Laval instead (via downtown Montreal).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sure everyone would love a station smack in the middle of Ottawa but that boat had sailed years ago. Besides, do you really want to spend an unreasonably large portion of the budget on a centrally located station in Ottawa (in comparison to say Toronto and Montreal?)

AoD

 

[ARG1]

With all due respect, but I feel as though this is the wrong mentality to have towards this type of project.

Why would we be discussing current travelling trends between Ottawa and Quebec City? Would a direct HSR connection between the two cities not change current travelling patterns?

Because Montreal is major metropolis with things, major companies, and a massive gravitational pull - meanwhile QC has a CMA population a bit larger than that of Waterloo. Like yes an HSR connection to QC could change travel patterns, but at the end of the day Montreal is a lot bigger and a lot closer. It will always be more important and valuable.

It's no different that suburban HSR stations in many other parts of the world. Y'all are going to have to get used to the fact that not every train station will be in the downtown core. And given Ottawa's situation, it really doesn't make sense today to spend the money to change that. A quick 4 stop ride is just fine. And in my experience, yes, the people who complain about where Tremblay station is, are rarely transit users.

I have complained about Tremblay's location for years, and during that time I have lived in Ottawa without a car. So no, you are wrong.

If anything, why would car users complain about Tremblay's location? It's right off the highway and has ample parking space. From a driver's perspective it's a lot nicer than having to get to Downtown Toronto through city streets and DVP/Gardiner traffic.

Now nobody is saying that we need to move Ottawa's Station and build a downtown S-Bahn tunnel, the ship for that has already sailed. The point that I and I believe @p_xavier are asking for is to not make the same mistake in other cities. Nobody wants to have to transfer to a metro at Summerhill or Canora/CDL to have to reach the city. Let Ottawa be exception, not the norm.

 

[p_xavier]

It's no different that suburban HSR stations in many other parts of the world. Y'all are going to have to get used to the fact that not every train station will be in the downtown core. And given Ottawa's situation, it really doesn't make sense today to spend the money to change that. A quick 4 stop ride is just fine. And in my experience, yes, the people who complain about where Tremblay station is, are rarely transit users.

You're way off. I never owned a car and rely uniquely on transit and Tremblay location has always been horrible as others said with no walking services close by.

 

[kEiThZ]

I have complained about Tremblay's location for years, and during that time I have lived in Ottawa without a car. So no, you are wrong.

If anything, why would car users complain about Tremblay's location? It's right off the highway and has ample parking space. From a driver's perspective it's a lot nicer than having to get to Downtown Toronto through city streets and DVP/Gardiner traffic.

Why exactly would transit users complain about Tremblay. Especially after the LRT? In the Transitway days, I get it. The ride was uncomfortable. Today? It's fairly painless. It's a bigger pain getting to GO trains at Union than it is to get to the LRT at Tremblay. And functionally there's not much of a difference whether you're on the LRT for one stop or four.

Now nobody is saying that we need to move Ottawa's Station and build a downtown S-Bahn tunnel, the ship for that has already sailed. The point that I and I believe @p_xavier are asking for is to not make the same mistake in other cities. Nobody wants to have to transfer to a metro at Summerhill or Canora/CDL to have to reach the city. Let Ottawa be exception, not the norm.

Realistically, you'll take what you get. Because what matters is getting it built. Not perfection. And if they can shave a few billion off the price tag by avoiding a certain stop or routing with minimal ridership loss, that is what they will do.

Also, at no point in this announcement, did anybody suggest that the Montreal stop wouldn't be in the core. So I have no idea where the speculation about Cote de Liesse is coming from.

 

[Bojaxs]

It's no different that suburban HSR stations in many other parts of the world. Y'all are going to have to get used to the fact that not every train station will be in the downtown core. And given Ottawa's situation, it really doesn't make sense today to spend the money to change that. A quick 4 stop ride is just fine. And in my experience, yes, the people who complain about where Tremblay station is, are rarely transit users.

IIRC Osaka's HSR train station is located outside the downtown core in a suburb. But the station offers great transit connections to downtown.

 

[kEiThZ]

You're way off. I never owned a car and rely uniquely on transit and Tremblay location has always been horrible as others said with no walking services close by.

Right. And Tremblay has been that way before most of us were born. So what's the deal here? You think they should spend billions to rectify this?

Also, it's pretty hilarious that somebody who lives in the middle of nowhere wants to complain about Tremblay being in the middle of nowhere. Give it a decade or two and there will be more people living and working within a kilometre of Tremblay than your town. If there aren't already.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Why exactly would transit users complain about Tremblay. Especially after the LRT? In the Transitway days, I get it. The ride was uncomfortable. Today? It's fairly painless. It's a bigger pain getting to GO trains at Union than it is to get to the LRT at Tremblay. And functionally there's not much of a different whether you're on the LRT for one stop or four.

It could use a fully covered/climate controlled link. Relatively minor cost.

AoD