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Alternatives to Transit City, the Spadina Extension, Yonge Extension, Etc.

My priorities are, in this order:

1) DRL from Don Mills/Finch to Eglinton West via Queen.
- this will double subway capacity into the downtown core, which is required to accommodate a system wide ridership increase.

2) Eglinton subway, Airport to a logical termination point in Scarborough.

3) Use the above now redundant buses and streetcars and distribute them elsewhere throughout the system.

4) Recognizing that in most Toronto, LRT can only ever function as a feeder line to the subway, build various TC lines generally 5 km or less to connect neighbourhoods to the subway.

This includes about 65km of new subway, but if the cost of subway construction can be brought down to $100M per km by doing away with deep tunnels, cavernous stations, and international design competitions, it should be feasible to do for 10B.
 
1-DRL (Eglinton-Jane via Dundas West to Eglinton-Don Mills via Pape)

a)This should relieve even further the Yonge line
b)Eglinton-Don Mills DRL Station means no need of a Don mills LRT south of Eglinton since the DRL would do the rest.



2-Kill Sheppard LRT line and use the funds for: Sheppard-Jane To STC
The 85 bus from the zoo to STC or Kennedy North or Agincourt should be more than enough.

If the Eglinton Crosstown was connected to DRL at Jane (western part)
Jane LRT would become less necessary and could be done in a Transit City II project. We could add reserved lane on Jane and the bus would have 4 connections to rapid transit

a-Steeles West
b-Sheppard-Jane
c-Eglinton Crosstown
d-Jane Subway station

So the funds of Sheppard East and Jane LRT would finance The complete Sheppard line


3-Eglinton Crosstown:
Elevated from Kennedy to Laird
Underground from Laird to Keele
Elevated from Keele to Pearson

ICTS has better capacity...

4-Bloor Danforth extension to Square One

5-Ask the city to have King and Queen as one-ways between Roncevalles and Don Valley. This way the downtown part of the line could be built like Spadina or St-Clair.

6-Reconstruct Kennedy station. The SRT will be upgraded. The problem with th RT is the transfer at Kennedy. With Eglinton Crosstown and Malvern being added, the TTC should completely rethink that station.

7-Keep Finch West,Malvern,Waterfront.
 
Lots of good ideas. However, what would you do with the situation we have today? So a lot of that GO stuff is already happening. The question for me would be how do you divvy up the Transit City money. Feel free to suggest GO improvements, but tell us how you'd pay for them.

If I were to adhere religiously to your $10 billion dollar budgetary limit (I've heard widespread rumours of Transit City costing as much as $13 billion for at least a couple years now, but oh well), and were to use it solely to build new subways, here's what would go down:

Using $150-200 million/km as a template (the TTC's own hyperinflated stats have no basis in reality, JMO) ...

  • $ 3.8 B- Downtown Relief Subway (Dundas West Stn - Ontario Science Ctr)
  • $ 3.7 B- Crosstown subway line (Kennedy-Highway 27; $1.5 B- at grade/elevated + $2.2 B- underground). Pearson People-mover made bi-directional and extended southwards to interface with the subway’s western terminus.
  • $ 1.2 B- Bloor-Danforth extension to Scarborough Centre via hydro corridor; half-buried, half at-grade/trenched including Kennedy reconfiguration expenditures
  • $ 1.3 B- Bloor-Danforth extension to Cooksville GO/Hurontario (Peel gov't could pledge the additional funds necessary to get it all the way to Sq 1/ CCTT)
Beyond that, LRT along Don Mills and perhaps Sheppard East (only because of the "stubway") should be highly prioritized but Jane, Kingston-Morningside-Malvern, Lakeshore and Finch West could easy well do fine for now with improved bus service including more limited-stop express routes. Long-term future expansion could include:

  • Eglinton subway extension to Guildwood (5 stations)
  • Bloor-Danforth subway extension to Malvern Town Centre (5 stations)
  • DRL subway extension to Mount Dennis (4 stations)
 
Ansem, would that be an Eglinton Crosstown Subway? I like the idea of making Don Mills stop at Eglinton. If the DRL and Eglinton Subways came to meet it, it would definitely make a logical terminus for the LRT.

I think I like your plan the best of all these alternatives. Actually, I like it better than Transit City itself! However, I'd rather have a fully shut down King St, and an open Queen St. Queen could be turned into either LRT or a Subway a couple years down the road, and I don't think a transit mall would work really well for it.

EDIT: Amphibious, while your cost estimates may be a bit optimistic, it's a pretty good breakdown. If a candidate announced they would be spending the Transit City money on this instead, I would definitely be voting for them. I think you should run next election :)

Buuuut, I think that ignoring the Waterfront West LRT is mistake. The Waterfront West LRT is basically the missing piece in the puzzle for the Streetcar Routes. I would prefer it if they added one or two stations on the route, but I think it's necessary even as it is now. It would open up so many possibilities for transit routes through the Core that I would consider it the first or second most important TC line to get built as it is now. Anyways, the cost estimates don't put it as that expensive.
 
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Hmmm... 10b.

1.) DRL Phase 1: Don Mills and Eglinton through Pape to Eastern (maybe with an 'elbow' down into the Portlands & Donlands proper) then across Adelaide to somewhere in Clubland through the financial district (clubland because restarting subway construction @ Bay/Adelaide would be a pain, clubland should have more room). Length of about 12-16km, depending. I wouldn't use current "subway" tech either, but something more akin to the RAV in Vancouver. Cost should be about 1.8-2.4b (@150m/km - RAV was 80m/km).

2.)New "Rapidbus" network: I described what I had in mind earlier. I don't really know the bus network well enough to pick and choose which routes would be best but high ridership arterials like Dufferin seem like shoe ins. Given that I don't know the exact routes, lets assume that 200 new high capacity articulated buses are necessary. At a mil each, we are at .2b. I would add another 300m here for what the TTC claims a RFID card system would cost, allowing all door boarding (there are other ways, but whatever). Maybe another hundred million in route upgrades (diamond lanes, improved stops stops, signaling systems, road layout modifications plus bus station modifications to handle bigger buses). Should work out to about .6-.7 billion for the whole kit. Run these as a different brand. Differentiate it from vanilla buses to boost attention. Use different colour schemes, unique buses and maybe more comfortable seats.

3.)Eglinton RT Phase 1: No matter what, totally grade separated between the Humber river & Don Mills. This is one of those "LRT vs. world" debates, but the central section I am talking about here would be more or less the same regardless of what was chosen. I'd opt for RAV like technology, a mini-metro. At what should be no more than 150m/km for about 13km we get 2b, give or take.

4.)Sheppard East RT: Basically complete the Sheppard to SCT. For all I care, build the thing above ground on a viaduct. Anything to get away from the TTC's costing of subways at 400m/km or whatever the number is today. There is no way this should cost more than 2b.

5.)Finch Hydro corridor Transitway: Pretty self explanatory name. I doubt we will ever see bus lanes along the 401, so this could fill in for that. Might be better anyways, the 401 isn't really integrated with high order transit anyways, this would easily connect to the current Finch station, as well as the planned Finch West. Length of about 30km, the costs can't possibly be too high. Just to be on the safe side, assumed cost of 50m/km for about 1.5b.

6.)Eglinton West Transitway: Richview corridor to the airport, baby. Land aquisition costs have gotta be non existent. Basically as per the original Network 2011 plan. Shouldn't be more than 600m. In the interim it should have its eastern terminus interact with GO services along the Weston corridor as well as the Eglinton RT.

7.)East End Transitway: This I'm not sure about. The idea would be to build a transitway along the hydrocorridor running N.E. from Vic Park/Eglinton to the Rouge River ravine. I don't really know Scarborough so well, so maybe this isn't even necessary, but it could provide a highspeed direct busway (hell, maybe let cabs use it) between the boonies and the northern end of a DRL, as well as the DVP for GO buses heading to Union. Call it 900m.

8.)DRL Phase 2: Picking up on Adelaide in Clubland somewhere, this would run to somewhere along the Bloor line. Traditional routes run basicly to the rail corridor then up to Dundas West, I'm personally partial to Dufferin. The western leg of the DRL isn't really meant to "relieve" anything, so I don't see the harm in having it do a milk run up Dufferin to Bloor to start with, then up to St.Clair/Dufferin before veering off to the Eglinton BRT/RT/GO junction around Eglinton/Weston. About 1.6b.

All in all this is closer to 12b, but parts of it may not even be necessary (East End Transitway, RFID card system), so I think it is fairly comparable to the current TC in costs. I didn't include projects funded under MO2020 like improved GO services or independently funded TTC projects like the waterfront east LRT. Its a pretty bus-heavy system. There are routes like the Weston corridor which might be neat to run with a kind of tram-train setup, but might be a bit overkill with both a western DRL leg and better GO service. Maybe in the future it may be worth converting some of the busways to LRT, but whatever.
 
1. what if the B-D line was extended to Rouge Hill Go station and have a Transit hub for DRT Buses.

2.DRL obviously. Pape to Dundas west VIA Union Stn.
3. GO crosstown line using the 401 from Airport to Durham Region.
4. More Rocket routes
5. Extended the Sheppard line to westwood Mall using Finch in the west and extend to Toronto Zoo in the east.
 
I urge some of you to cost out some of this stuff. I would like to see what the Transit City cash (10-13 billion) could get. Suggestion about 50 km of subway are in the realm of fantasy for a first phase of Transit City.
 
...stuffed with career bureaucrats with a 1960s mentality towards urban planning and who probably have never seen how it's done in more advanced areas of the world.

The 60s were a lot better than now -- that's for sure. We actually built roads and subways back then, and the music was actually good.
 
Ansem, would that be an Eglinton Crosstown Subway? I like the idea of making Don Mills stop at Eglinton. If the DRL and Eglinton Subways came to meet it, it would definitely make a logical terminus for the LRT.

I think I like your plan the best of all these alternatives. Actually, I like it better than Transit City itself! However, I'd rather have a fully shut down King St, and an open Queen St. Queen could be turned into either LRT or a Subway a couple years down the road, and I don't think a transit mall would work really well for it.

Thanks a lot!

For your question on Eglinton, It would be like the RT but part underground-elevated like the pictures on the eglinton crosstown thread but it would stay a crosstown.

I think that the Queen and King streetcars should stay. It add charm to downtown and good for tourism. By making those 2 streets one-ways, we get to keep them and make them go faster and be more efficient.
 
1) Keep the Yonge Extension (no change in cost)
2) Change the Spadina extension into LRT (save 1.5 billion)
3) Upgrade Sheppard LRT to subway to STC and Downsview, keep Sheppard bus east of that. (Roughly 2.5 billion for 10km of subway, some under highways and new trainsets)
4) Trade Jane and Don Mills LRT for Bloor-to-Bloor DRL using train corridors (revenue neutral).

Hey look! Revenue neutral.
 
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I think that the Queen and King streetcars should stay. It add charm to downtown and good for tourism...

Railfanism in transportation planning is a big no-no. This is why Steve Munro has zero credibility in my book when it comes to being objective and impartial wrt mode (bus, lrt, subway). Don't make the same mistake. The streetcars either stay or go for other reasons, not because they're "charming".

Besides, our streetcars don't attract tourists -- San Fran's cable cars do, but ours don't.
 
I would like the buses to have less frequent stopping and all-door loading, that would make a huge speed advantage at a tiny cost.
 
Amphibious, while your cost estimates may be a bit optimistic, it's a pretty good breakdown. If a candidate announced they would be spending the Transit City money on this instead, I would definitely be voting for them. I think you should run next election :)

Buuuut, I think that ignoring the Waterfront West LRT is mistake. The Waterfront West LRT is basically the missing piece in the puzzle for the Streetcar Routes. I would prefer it if they added one or two stations on the route, but I think it's necessary even as it is now. It would open up so many possibilities for transit routes through the Core that I would consider it the first or second most important TC line to get built as it is now. Anyways, the cost estimates don't put it as that expensive.

Thanks for the endorsement. Want a cabinet post? ;)

I don't think $150/km for at-grade sections (through the Richview Exwy lands; Don Valley-DVP-Jonesville lands), $175 million/km for elevated or open-trenched (through the Golden Mile & Ionview; between Keele and Weston Rd) and of course underground ($200/km) from Weston Road to Brentcliffe is all that outlandish. Remember we live in the same country as Vancouver which was able to build the uber-modern Canada Line utilizing the most costly of right-of-ways for only $100 million/km ($1.9 B for 19 kms). And Montreal STM's 5.2 km subway extension into Laval cost only $803 million total or a mere $154 milliom/km. There must be something inherently flawed with our local gov't system here that we must be saddled with such high figures that hinder mass public approval at getting any of these lines built.

As for Waterfront West, to my understanding it'll function more or less in the same manner as 508 Lakeshore, west of Queen & Roncesvalles. The only new right-of-way will be straddling the Lakeshore GO Line all the way to Union Stn. This could just utilize plain ole CLRV cars and the suited trackage for it that'd save the city a bundle.
 
kEiThZ

I'd love to cost out things, but really we're just pulling numbers out of our asses at this point. When the TTC costs things, they go out of their way to make subway out-of-this-world expensive. And when you budget an amount, it almost always comes out to MORE than that. I just don't see any realistic way for us to budget our wants and needs, because we can't trust the TTC's (biased) numbers, and it's otherwise very difficult to determine actual costs for our city in particular, versus Montreal or NYC or Madrid.

My Priorities

1. DRL Phase I from Dundas West to Pape via Union = 12 km
2. Sheppard East to STC = 8 km + Sheppard West Phase I to Downsview = 4.5 km = 12.5 km
3. Danforth to STC = 6 km
4. Eglinton Phase I - Jane to Don Mills = 13.5 km

= 44 km of subway

= 4.4 billion @ $100 million/km
= 8.8 billion @ $200 million/km
= 11.0 billion @ $250 million/km
 
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