CDL.TO
Moderator
But we weren't talking about whether it was a post-subway redevelopment, we were discussing whether or not the subway led to the expansion of Yorkdale.
|
|
|
Allen Road/Spadina Subway Urbanization
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
We were discussing why there was so little redevelopment along the Spadina line compared to the Sheppard line.
tempperm
New Member
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Yes, people like Hume are desperately concerned when subways don't spawn condos, but, in reality, it doesn't matter how many condos they throw up...condos will only add a small number of riders compared to, for example, intersecting with the Finch bus, or Yorkdale, or York U, all of which pre-date the subway. Even if they do deck over the Allen and build condos, this still won't add as many riders to the line as a 20% share of Yorkdale's traffic. Along these lines, people use condos like NY Towers to justify the Sheppard line and tend to neglect the existence of Fairview, or the entirety of Agincourt.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Guess that page of discussion was all in my imagination.
Yeesh. And this whole time I really and truly was extremely curious if there was a factual basis of a claim that transit accessibility has no effect on the growth of a retail conglomeration. I thought you were privy to some knowledge that would have been quite a meaningful revelation and really affected my perception of the urban form. Instead I discover that I was wasting my time in a meaningless semantic debate over the meaning of the word "because" with someone who was more interested in "winning" the debate than coming to a conclusion or understanding.
I have a personal rule not to get in to debates about semantics. Guess this is a lesson that sometimes it's difficult to recognize whether that's the sort of debate the other person is making it out to be.
Sigh. *wanders off*
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
This would have been resolved or avoided in 5 seconds in a real life conversation...when I said "because" I didn't mean "the subway had absolutely no impact."
I think there's a clear difference between Yorkdale and NY Towers in that NY Towers would not be a smaller complex without the subway (as Yorkdale might have had smaller expansions), there'd be no towers at all.
While transit access can indisputedly spur retail expansion (such as PATH) the impact is debatable in other cases and I think you are overstating its importance. STC relies heavily on bus and RT access as a % of overall traffic, but expanded only once in the 70s when Scarborough's population was exploding and once in the 90s when the new theatre was built. I"m not aware of any plans for Fairview to be expanded now that it has subway access - it was expanded in the early 90s. I was under the impression Sherway couldn't expand until road improvements in the area, like the QEW/427 interchange, were completed, but I could be wrong. Yorkdale has expanded but not by as much as it seems - it was 1.2 million sq.ft when it opened and the recent atrium addition was merely a conversion of the old Eaton's. Yorkdale also faced competition from Hillcrest, Promenade, Woodbine, etc. By going high end, Yorkdale did massively increase its market area. This is purely anecdotal, but I think the people that arrive by subway also spend less than those that arrive by car.
I think there's a clear difference between Yorkdale and NY Towers in that NY Towers would not be a smaller complex without the subway (as Yorkdale might have had smaller expansions), there'd be no towers at all.
While transit access can indisputedly spur retail expansion (such as PATH) the impact is debatable in other cases and I think you are overstating its importance. STC relies heavily on bus and RT access as a % of overall traffic, but expanded only once in the 70s when Scarborough's population was exploding and once in the 90s when the new theatre was built. I"m not aware of any plans for Fairview to be expanded now that it has subway access - it was expanded in the early 90s. I was under the impression Sherway couldn't expand until road improvements in the area, like the QEW/427 interchange, were completed, but I could be wrong. Yorkdale has expanded but not by as much as it seems - it was 1.2 million sq.ft when it opened and the recent atrium addition was merely a conversion of the old Eaton's. Yorkdale also faced competition from Hillcrest, Promenade, Woodbine, etc. By going high end, Yorkdale did massively increase its market area. This is purely anecdotal, but I think the people that arrive by subway also spend less than those that arrive by car.
Disparishun
Active Member
My understanding, for what it's worth, is that Bayview Village explicitly did not want a link with the Bayview subway station. Ditto with the Promenade and the prospect of locating the VIVA/YRT terminal adjacent to it (in the way the Rideau Center does) -- instead it is just beyond the Promenade's parking lot in an asphalt no man's land.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
I guess they didn't want mallrats.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
That's silly! Why would they not want to captialize on their proximity to subway/rapid transit, in my eyes a major selling point? I've been to both stations, felt like going inside the malls to buy something but renegged cause it was a long walk and the buses I was waiting for only come by ever so often, so it wasn't worth the risk. I bet retailers are losing a chuck of potential income because of this.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Transit needs suburban malls more than suburban malls need transit...if STC didn't have good transit connections, the first thing you'd see upon entering the mall would not be security guards.
Yorkdale's subway connection has not made it armed-guard central, so I doubt the reason that SCC is would be the RT station.
42
PS Sherway was musing on adding a second floor when the Bloor Danforth extension to itself or Dixie was still being talked about, and Sherway's developers at the time (80s?) had pledged something like $25 Million to help build the station there.
42
PS Sherway was musing on adding a second floor when the Bloor Danforth extension to itself or Dixie was still being talked about, and Sherway's developers at the time (80s?) had pledged something like $25 Million to help build the station there.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
All the bus routes in Malvern don't converge on Yorkdale.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
A Sherway connection to the subway still seems logical, if done right. Besides the mall there's a growing business and condo community and the Trillium Hospital within walking distance. Also lack of development on the Mississauga side could soon change with the promise of a line on the horizon.
GEnius053
New Member
It's strange but the most people who plan anything in Toronto are preoccupied with the idea that the people do nothing but go downtown every day to work.
However they don't.
So nobody can be sure that the tenents of the buildings over the Allen will use TTC to reach their jobs.
On the other hand if they will use their cars that Allen jam will spread porbably right to Steels or even norht of that.
Because Eglinton is the only thorougfare except Steels in Toronto/
However they don't.
So nobody can be sure that the tenents of the buildings over the Allen will use TTC to reach their jobs.
On the other hand if they will use their cars that Allen jam will spread porbably right to Steels or even norht of that.
Because Eglinton is the only thorougfare except Steels in Toronto/
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
STC had problems with gangs and crime in the early 80's long before the LRT was built.