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Afghanistan debate (Hillier, new troops)

Your comment is particularly ignorant coming on 9/11 and your insensical rambling offers no solution. Tell me what you would have done after the twin towers collapsed, the Pentagon was hit, and more innocent souls were lost in a smoking hole in the ground.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Answer the question. No paragraph long polemics. What would you have done as the US President on 12 September 2001?

I would not have invaded Afghanistan but instead I would have paid some serious attention to who the enemy was. Clearly there was a Saudi connection. The intelligence gathering, now viewed as flawed would have been scrutinized better. Understanding the enemy prior to war is of utmost importance, Bush failed in that area and thus an ally in Pakistan was born. Dropping bombs did not improve a damn thing nor did it rid Afghanistan of it's misinformed notions of the west. The Hearts and Mind of our global village were never convinced of this invasion tactic and supporting it now by default does not serve the Afghans or the young soldiers who continue the fight.....love is a durable fire of the mind always burning just as hate most definitely is. Save your insults, they are not helpful.
 
I would not have invaded Afghanistan but instead I would have paid some serious attention to who the enemy was. Clearly there was a Saudi connection. The intelligence gathering, now viewed as flawed would have been scrutinized better. Understanding the enemy prior to war is of utmost importance, Bush failed in that area and thus an ally in Pakistan was born. Dropping bombs did not improve a damn thing nor did it rid Afghanistan of it's misinformed notions of the west. The Hearts and Mind of our global village were never convinced of this invasion tactic and supporting it now by default does not serve the Afghans or the young soldiers who continue the fight.....love is a durable fire of the mind always burning just as hate most definitely is. Save your insults, they are not helpful.

So you would have attacked Saudi Arabia when AQ was hiding out in Afghanistan aided and abetted by the Taliban...why don't we take that one step further...Ahmed Rassam (the millenium bomber) travelled from Canada, should the US attack Canada too? The Sept 11 hijackers included nationals from UAE, Egypt, and Lebanon. Should we put them on the list too? If that's your opinion how are you any different than the neo-cons who sent the US military on a wild goose chase through Iraq?

Canadian intelligence as well agreed with US conclusion on 9/11 as did all the NATO countries. So did non allies like India, China, etc. Amazing how half the world reached the same conclusion, all with their own sources. They must all be stupid I tell ya! Now you show me what intelligence you have on 9/11 that half the intelligence analysts in the world missed.

As to dropping bombs....We rarely use air support in Kandahar. It is a measure of last resort where significant Canadian lives are at risk. Have me made mistakes? sure. But deadly mistakes do happen in a war zone. Are you seriously going to argue that NATO's collateral is worse than the Taliban killing dozens of civilians regularly while trying to attack NATO patrols? Our forces take absolutely every precaution to avoid civilian casualties. In fact, we go further and provide free medical care to any and every Afghan who requests it from a Canadian. And we airlift every Afghan who is injured during combat. Not just that, we actually provide health care to enemy fighters on a priority basis (sometimes ahead of wounded Canadians) routinely. Apparently, we're still the bad guys in your eyes.

And you save your insults. Spare me the I support the troops too claptrap. If you did, you would know that all of them believe in the mission. And ironically the more the danger they face the more they support it. One interaction with an Afghan and they come back convinced that we have to help....that's compassion. Your crocodile tears don't count for much with the real humanitarians in this audience....

You live in Lindsay I see. So you probably have no sense of what terror would be like in a major city. I was in university in downtown Toronto on 9/11. The subway shut down, power was out in some places, cell phone networks were sporadic. And that's with no attack. People were....terrified. I can't imagine what it would be like to actually be in a city under attack, or to frantically call a loved one who was on a plane or working at the WTC. And since then there's been the Bali bombings, the Madrid bombings, the 7/7 bombings, etc. Apparently that's all the fault of the west too right?

Our government and allies understand that if we pull out the Taliban will massacre the Afghans and impose a worse terror than their rule the first time around. Apparently, you have no problem with people getting stoned and beheaded in soccer stadiums, or the blowing up of centuries old cultural artifacts, the denial of the right to an education and work for women, the harbouring of anti-western jihadis, etc. That's all okay with you cause those Canadian, American and British troops are bastards and its all their fault. If only they left the poor little Taliban alone to nurture AQ and gone after half a dozen other Middle Eastern countries, things would have worked out......riiiiiiiight......

It's their country, and their government has requested our help fighting the Taliban, there is a UN and NATO mandate on this mission. Once their forces are trained up and they no longer need us we should leave. Hopefully that will be 2011. And I hope that we will keep helping them rebuild with aid after we bring the troops home. These people have seen 3 decades of conflict, and that's huge when your life expectancy is 43. I hope they get peace soon.
 
I would not have invaded Afghanistan but instead I would have paid some serious attention to who the enemy was.

Does this mean that you consider neither the Taliban or Al Qeada within Afghanistan as being enemies of the Afghan people? Would you have viewed the Taliban as the legitimate government merely because they exercised some form of power in parts of the country?

Dropping bombs did not improve a damn thing nor did it rid Afghanistan of it's misinformed notions of the west.

What are Afghanistan's misinformed notions of the west?
 
“We're there in numerous roles. We're there participating in reconstruction and development through CIDA. We have diplomats who are working in Kabul,†he said.<<<<Mackay This is what he claims Canada will being doing after our 2011 war mandate!

This should have been our role all along, this has always been my position.

So, who exactly is going to protect the diplomats and aid workers from the Taliban, seeing as the Taliban have already stated they will kill any foreign workers in Afghanistan? Development and reconstruction are only possible if no one is trying to constantly kill you.
 
[Osama's cQUOTE=Brian69;220166]So, who exactly is going to protect the diplomats and aid workers from the Taliban, seeing as the Taliban have already stated they will kill any foreign workers in Afghanistan? Development and reconstruction are only possible if no one is trying to constantly kill you.[/QUOTE]



Considering we can't turn back the hands of time, diplomacy is impossible now without considering the threat of possible attacks ..... I truly hope the world has learned a lessen from the invasion of Afghanistan by the Americans, with the "symbolic" efforts of NATO and the tragic results to the young Canadian soldiers who have died disproportionately. The problems inside Afghanistan included a theocracy for a government, a lawlessness that is born out of poverty, a frontier where many battles have played themselves out including the previous American/Russian one where it's well know that the Americans invested in cause despite his reputation of criminal activities elsewhere in the world....go ask the Jordon government....they openly approached the American's with information about who they were fighting along side in Afghanistan against the Russians before this current war adventure started. We know the problems, no need to rehash them here but one that has to be highlighted is the alliance with Pakistan, with a militarism stretch throughout her history, a bully mentality, where war is always in their best interest, America completely lost me with that alliance taking that the enemy of my enemy is my friend in the muslim world has proved to be as dynamic as it is in the secular world. Change doesn't happen over night but to claim this war is in any way a noble cause is to agree that the slaughter of innocent people is the price for back room political power struggles of the rich and dangerous, it's to high a price. My heart bleeds sorrow for all those dead people.
Next time, if there is one, I hope rushing into major military operations not supported by the majority on the planet is halted long enough for rational thinking to prevail......immediate solutions don't happen in our daily lives so the expectation that war will be a faster solution is ridiculous and the cost is way too high.
 
Honestly, you sound more smug about the result than interested in dealing with the problem.

"Considering we can't turn back the hands of time, diplomacy is impossible now without considering the threat of possible attacks ....."--it sounds like you are admitting removing the troops will make it worse yet you can't bring yourself to recognize this. How about answering my question of "How do you protect anyone in Afghanistan?" in light of your drumbeat that NATO leaves the region.

Without dealing with the here and now we get a history lesson. However, while you rehash your reasons against waging a War in Afghanistan you fail to note the different dynamics in play since the Taliban arrived and starting working with the religious extremists. This isn't an territorial issue between the Soviets and Afghanistan. This is bigger than any of your past examples--this is religious and ideological. We now have the Taliban working with terrorists who have demonstrated their interest in attacking targets in the West (including attacks happening before the War in Afghanistan took place) yet you seem to indicate the West should have done nothing in the face of having a clear source of terror attacks training with impunity. Sure, just leave Afghanistan alone, there's no reason to worry about that tribal mess, no chance of it spilling over into the West...hm?
 
jade_lee

First, you seriously need to improve your literacy. You are barely making any coherent arguments here. If you want to make your case, stop using non-nonsensical sentences that make no cogent arguments.

Next, we don't need the history lesson. Everyone here knows how the situation developed. So the Americans are to blame for helping the Afghans fight off the Soviet invasion? The west should have just let them steam roll Afghanistan, right? The way I see it, the Taliban stabbed the west (particularly the US) in the back by allowing AQ in after we helped their forerunners fight off the Soviets.

And what 'symbolic' efforts are you referring to? We are fighting to win, so that the Afghan people can be rid of this Taliban curse for good and so that the west might be left in peace. We aren't making a 'symbolic' effort. Do you even understand what you said here?

The problems inside Afghanistan included a theocracy for a government, a lawlessness that is born out of poverty, a frontier where many battles have played themselves out ...

Exactly, so tell me again, how will pulling out a force dedicated to restoring security and undertaking reconstruction, help the Afghans get back on their feet?

Change doesn't happen over night but to claim this war is in any way a noble cause is to agree that the slaughter of innocent people is the price for back room political power struggles of the rich and dangerous, it's to high a price. My heart bleeds sorrow for all those dead people.

You are right that change doesn't happen over night. It's our idiotic politicians who think they can fix Afghanistan in a few years after three decades of conflict there. We will probably be there for another decade in some form or another before they have no need for us and are completely independent. That doesn't mean combat for another decade. That means things like reconstruction, training, diplomacy, etc.

Nobody claimed that war is a noble cause or that we agree to the slaughter of innocent people. NATO is trying to prevent the Taliban from slaughtering innoncents, but apparently you have nothing bad to say about them. From your viewpoint, NATO is at fault here. Who do you think will protect the Afghan people from the Taliban if NATO pulled out immediately?

Your heart bleeds for all those dead people right? Well what about the living who will be killed by the Taliban if we leave? Apparently you don't care about them.
 
My heart bleeds sorrow for all those dead people.
Next time, if there is one, I hope rushing into major military operations not supported by the majority on the planet is halted long enough for rational thinking to prevail......

When NATO forces entered Afghanistan, there already was an on-going civil war. I was wondering if you would have asked whether the "majority on the planet" if it was okay for this war to be taking place? How about asking the Afghan populace if they want a stable society, an operating civil government and some hope for the future of their children? I'm sure if they were free from the retribution of opposing forces, they would openly embrace a stable, war-free society.

You say you bleed for the dead, but you appear to be completely open to the idea for people to die only at the hands of those you find acceptable to do the killing - and so long as NATO or the West is not involved.
 
PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen
DATE: 2008.09.15
EDITION: Final
SECTION: News
PAGE: A11
COLUMN: Khorshied Samad
BYLINE: Khorshied Samad
SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen
WORD COUNT: 1093

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to school in Kabul

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canadians' September ritual is familiar to a privileged few in the West, but increasing violence is threatening much of recent progress on education in Afghanistan

The feel of fall is in the air again, the mornings crisp and cool, and the days grown shorter. Yellow buses have appeared driving children to school, many wearing new clothes, lugging new backpacks filled with school supplies, and a hearty dose of apprehension and excitement about school days ahead. It is an image that most of us in the West are quite familiar with, but in reality exists for only a privileged few.

In Afghanistan this image exists only on celluloid or in the imaginations of many a bright-eyed child. Afghan children do not take yellow buses, nor carry new backpacks brimming with supplies or nutritious lunches to school. They are considered extremely lucky if they can go to school at all, and if they happen to be school age girls able to get an education, they are part of a small percentage -- a shrinking percentage at that.

Since the fall of the Taliban nearly seven years ago, more than 5.4 million Afghan children have returned to school, an estimated 1.75 million of them girls. It is an achievement worth recognition, but so much more needs to be done. A recent Oxfam report estimates half of school age children do not attend school -- with significant gender and provincial disparities. From 1996 to late 2001, only 700,000 boys were allowed to attend school, run under strict Taliban code.

Women and girls were forbidden to attend school or receive an education, instead relegated to forced domesticity. They were also forbidden to work, travel without a male relative, receive medical attention by male doctors, and suffered a host of other indignities as non-citizens under the ruthless Taliban regime. The very few who did study or teach did so in peril through underground schools, and thousands did defiantly holding out hope against illiteracy and oppression.

In 2002, a few months after my arrival in Kabul, I witnessed Afghan girls and young women returning to school for the first time since the Taliban regime had been driven out. Thousands of them clogged the dusty streets, dressed simply in long black skirts and flowing tops, their hair covered by white head scarves. Many of them held hands in delight, giggling, laughing aloud, some hidden by umbrellas against the bright morning sun, as they proudly walked to school; the majority of them for the first time after six years of medieval darkness. It was a breathtaking parade of joy and hope, of sunny optimism after the fall of tyranny.

Inside barren classrooms, some without roofs, some even without walls, adorned with only a chalkboard and a few desks if any, the students lined up by age group to receive their lessons. The younger girls were in the front rows, faces scrubbed clean, eyes sparkling with excitement. In the back were teenagers, perhaps a bit embarrassed to be in the same class with much younger girls, but just as eager to learn. This was their chance to study and stimulate their minds, and to try and catch up on so much stolen time.

Out of a population of approximately 28 million, an estimated 11 million Afghans are illiterate. The estimated literacy rate among women is 15.8 per cent compared to 31 per cent for men, and drops considerably in the rural areas. These epidemic proportions are in dire need of improvement and earnest support by the Afghan government and international community. Although 3,500 new schools have been built since 2002 with the help of the United States, Canada, EU members, and other donor nations, many thousands of communities still do not have access to schools, with thousands of children still forced to learn in cross-border madrasas where the seeds of intolerance and exclusion are sown.

Sadly, over the last two years, instead of an increase in numbers and overall attendance at school by Afghan students, there has been an overall decrease, especially among girls, because of the terror tactics used by the Taliban and growing insurgency along the tribal belt provinces. More than six per cent of newly built schools have been burned down by the Taliban during the last 18 months -- easy soft targets for their cowardice -- and 220 students and teachers brutally killed in 2007 alone. Families have been openly told not to send their daughters to school, otherwise face the same tragic fate as the others. Fear has once again gripped the psyche of the Afghan people, and disheartened the intent of the donor community.

If anyone wonders why the Taliban are so fearful of girls and women getting an education, we need to revisit the misguided ideology that drives them. Educated minds will rebuild with purpose and dignity, perhaps becoming future leaders. Educated women are movers and shakers in Afghanistan, true agents of change becoming empowered ministers, MPs, journalists and human rights activists. They are a force to be reckoned with, held up as role models by so many young girls, and respected by both men and women who long for real change in their country.

Since the Taliban's aim is only to destroy, murder and intimidate, rebuilding Afghanistan is far from their agenda. They want to leave it a barren wasteland, a war-torn and opium-riddled country, inhabited by impoverished and illiterate men and women. Nothing speaks louder than the torching of more than 110,000 textbooks headed for schools over the last few weeks.

Without hope and awareness there cannot be real progress, and this is what the Afghan people so desperately need besides security, economic development and sustainability, and lasting peace. Every Afghan child and adult needs access to proper schools and trained teachers, protected and secure against the scourge of terrorism. The Afghan government needs to reinforce its strategy to protect education by working hand in hand with local communities and the international organizations involved in this sector.

We need to continue the course for the Afghan people, who deserve our unyielding support in the face of such overwhelming challenges.

Khorshied Samad is the former Kabul bureau chief and correspondent for Fox News Channel, and is the spouse of the Afghanistan Ambassador to Canada.
 
When NATO forces entered Afghanistan, there already was an on-going civil war. I was wondering if you would have asked whether the "majority on the planet" if it was okay for this war to be taking place? How about asking the Afghan populace if they want a stable society, an operating civil government and some hope for the future of their children? I'm sure if they were free from the retribution of opposing forces, they would openly embrace a stable, war-free society.

You say you bleed for the dead, but you appear to be completely open to the idea for people to die only at the hands of those you find acceptable to do the killing - and so long as NATO or the West is not involved.

The Afghans want us out......notice they keep fighting?
 
This statement indicates that you know nothing of what is going on in Afghanistan. So everyone in Afghanistan - the entire population - is fighting NATO troops? Everyone - the entire Afghan population - is completely opposed to Western aid and security efforts?

Just for once, jade lee, just for once show something that supports a statement like you made above.
 
The Afghans want us out......notice they keep fighting?

No the Taliban want us out, and they keep fighting. Many of their fighters are foreigners and Pakistani pashtuns. The few Afghans who are involved in the insurgency are usually forcibly conscripted into it or are paid fighters who take it up because they can't find other work.

Be careful when you talk about the Afghans as a group. Northern Afghanistan is peaceful, reconstruction there has proceeded quite well, and the residents there are very supportive of NATO. 90% of the violence in Afghanistan occurs in only 10% of the country....the Pashtun south. Our casualties are high because we are in the south. Otherwise, things are looking up for Afghanistan overall.
 
The few Afghans who are involved in the insurgency are usually forcibly conscripted into it or are paid fighters who take it up because they can't find other work.


True. however

A lot of the original Taliban support went into Pakistan after the American came in.


They then rebuilt themselves and got help from other countries.

Now its the outsiders that fight and die for them while the Original Taliban leaders sit back and drink tea in the mountains of the Hindu Kush and the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.
 

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