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A bigger Canada?

This day and age it is rare to find a country that is underpopulated. Canada is one of those places, where its arable land is astronomically higher than its population requires.

The world would be better if there were a larger Canada and overpopulated regions such as Africa, the Indian subcontinent and east Asia saw a population slowdown (if birthrates could be reduced by education, for example).
 
Geographically speaking, only about 5% of Canada's land is arable land, and a considerable portion of that land is used for producing grains. Otherwise, much of the geography is inhospitable to agricultural activities (such as the western and Arctic cordillera regions, tundra, high Arctic, etc). For example, boreal forest covers over 50% of Canada, but the central and northern Taiga soil is typically quite nutrient-poor. In addition, the Canadian Shield cannot support intensive agriculture except for subsistence activities usually found in the southern parts of the country. The climate of well over two-thirds of this country simply does not allow for any productive agricultural activity at all.
 
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Geographically speaking, only about 5% of Canada's land is arable land, and a considerable portion of that land is used for producing grains. Otherwise, much of the geography is inhospitable to agricultural activities (such as the western and Arctic cordillera regions, tundra, high Arctic, etc). For example, boreal forest covers over 50% of Canada, but the central and northern Taiga soil is typically quite nutrient-poor. In addition, the Canadian Shield cannot support intensive agriculture except for subsistence activities usually found in the southern parts of the country. The climate of well over two-thirds of this country simply does not allow for any productive agricultural activity at all.
A bit more than 5%, and there are a couple of areas that have good soil which will have vastly better conditions in 80 years if global warming hasn't been fully addressed. This includes an extension of the plains environment of the Prairies all the way up the side of the rockies until about halfway through the NWT, and the Cochrane Clay Belt. Not that I think that we should be putting anyone there. We can fit so many more people into the already settled areas in the south of the country than we currently have. This is especially true in BC and the Prairies, where the former could support a lot of industry and innovative development, and the latter could just support a higher population like almost any other agricultural region in the world.

Brandon: I agree fully, assuming you mean people come out of india and africa and into canada :p
 
Right now, about 5% of Canada's land surface is arable land. Regarding what is supposed to happen in 80 years in terms of climate is nothing more than mere speculation, and hardly a basis to argue about improved agricultural output for accelerating population growth.
 
Since when do we need improved agricultural output? And did I not explicitly state that I could give a rat's ass about new agricultural land that could be unlocked from global warming, and perhaps mentioned that I'd prefer it if that actually doesn't happen?
 
Short temper?

You were the one who brought up global warming. I really could not care less what your opinion is on the topic, I pointed out that there is no way to forecast what the effect of a warming climate would be on agricultural output in Canada.

And with respect to the subject of agricultural output, since this thread topic is about increasing population in an accelerated manner, it should not be forgotten that people need to eat. That would obviously be the reason why agriculture was mentioned.

If you have any doubts about arable land use, you can always further inform yourself.

Canada is populated. The notion that it is "underpopulated" is an opinion and not a fact.
 
Canada is a huge food exporter. And if we do end up running out of food, just take the food from where it'd go otherwise. Remember, I'm advocating for extra immigration, not higher birth rates. Those people that'd be living in Canada would need to eat anyways. And in what I think is the odd event that the country can't support 100 million people, then we just start to import food. And I highly doubt that we'd end up being net importers, even with 100 million people. Disregarding arable land, there's tonnes that can be done in fields like urban agriculture and hydroponics to support many, many people. And hey, if Canada ends up innovating there due to a lack of arable land to feed our population, we'll be able to export that technology to the rest of the world, either stopping people from starving or letting farms be consolidated back towards forest. Basically a win-win, considering you're saying that Canada wouldn't be able to support these people even though the world population would remain the same. So that means if more pressure is put on Canadian farms (because I guess we can't accept importing food,) it'll just mean pressure's taken off of Indian or African farms.

If you look at it as compared to basically any other country on earth, Canada would be underpopulated. If you look at regions based on climatic and geographic factors, Canada is underpopulated. I'm not talking about the great white north here; I'm talking about the southern Prairies and the rocky mountains where by standards anywhere else in the world, they'd have the low end of the stick in population. And I've showed LAz that the Prairies and southern Rockies are very similar to other regions in the world that are way more densely populated (Japan, the Eurasian Steppe, Northern China.)
If you're arguing that all these other regions are overpopulated, I'd argue against many of those points (at least the ones that Canada could be compared to,) but here's a solely logical and objective argument. There is a certain number of people in the earth. You might argue that a place like India or China is overpopulated, and I'd be inclined to agree with you there. But they all have far higher population densities than Canada, even far higher than just our population density of our arable land. By keeping them out of our very livable and relatively sparsely populated land, we're not doing a service to anyone. We're just keeping the pressure on other parts of the world and their populations.

EDIT: And the only loss of temper was when you tried to find a flaw in my argument that I specifically stated wasn't part of my point. I just noted that nobody really knows how much agricultural land may be unlocked by global warming except that there's a bunch of potential that just needs to be graced by warmer temperatures. But then I said that I'm not worrying about any of those future unknowns when asking for Canada to have 100 million people, or what I accept to be the more realistic number of about 70 million. Yet your post was specifically regarding solely this thing that I said wasn't really any factor in what I'm looking for.
 
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"Only 5%" of the world's second largest nation is a lot of land. If you look at the numbers Canada has many times more arable land than any number of states, such as Germany, France, etc that have far more people.

Reading the CIA factbook, you will find out "only 18%" of the United States is arable as well.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

Don't let the fact that Canada has an absolutely huge amount of arable land go unnoticed, even if it is "only" 5% of a very super-large land mass.
 
Canada is a huge food exporter.

We also import agricultural products because we do not have permanent crops in Canada. Take a look at what we produce and export on a large scale: barley, sugar beets, oats, flax, maize, canola and rye. There are relatively few regions for growing fruits and vegetables. Sure, we could build massive pig farms to vastly increase meat production, but that does not increase the quantity of arable land - or the fact that you can't grow crops year-round in this country. Meeting the needs of just over thirty million people is one thing; doing the same for one-hundred million or more is different.

Remember, I'm advocating for extra immigration, not higher birth rates.

Regardless, why is an accelerated population so desirable? Is it a power thing? Besides, what difference does immigration make over an increased birth rate? You have not clarified that. Are you expecting all new immigrants to Canada to then be celibate?

Disregarding arable land, there's tonnes that can be done in fields like urban agriculture and hydroponics to support many, many people.

You can never disregard arable land when it comes to agriculture. It's strange that you would say such a thing.

You need only go north of Toronto to see suburbs sprouting up on some of the richest and most productive farmland in the country. You also invoke urban agriculture and hydroponics without giving any thought to the viability (economic or otherwise) of either method. Urban agriculture will likely never be intensive enough as a major source for food crops. The fact that it does not exist as a measurable large-scale source of food production presently means that there is no way to measure its actual effectiveness as a source to meet massive population increases. It would be far more likely that urban spaces would be used to build housing for the population you wish to bring in. That's not to say that there can't ever be any urban agriculture. With respect to hydroponics, you would have to vastly increase such production to a truly industrial scale. The fact is, we derive a vast majority of our agriculture from our arable lands and will continue to do so. Even taking into account genetically modified crops, you would still primarily be using that quantity of arable land to grow such crops. You can't get ever get away from specifics such as climate.

... we'll be able to export that technology to the rest of the world, either stopping people from starving or letting farms be consolidated back towards forest.

This is all highly speculative and certainly not a sound basis for your argument. What kind of technology are you referring to? And why would you suggest growing forest on the limited quantity of agriculturally productive land? That makes no sense whatsoever. Over 50% of Canada is presently covered in forest. I'm not sure how this is relevant to your argument. It's best not to promote non-existing technologies as a solution.

Basically a win-win, considering you're saying that Canada wouldn't be able to support these people even though the world population would remain the same. So that means if more pressure is put on Canadian farms (because I guess we can't accept importing food,) it'll just mean pressure's taken off of Indian or African farms.

You are overestimating your ability to make projections about the future. For example, how do you know that the global population will stabilize? You presume that moving people from one part of the globe to another will somehow make population "remain the same." It's not at all clear that this would be the case.

There is a certain number of people in the earth. You might argue that a place like India or China is overpopulated, and I'd be inclined to agree with you there.

If you accept that there is an overpopulation, then you would understand that shifting populations is not a solution to overpopulation.

If you look at it as compared to basically any other country on earth, Canada would be underpopulated.

Sorry to say, but that appears to be questionable thinking. You have not defined your terms in any realistic sense. Besides, it's not an issue of comparison. You might want to avoid what you refer to as "the Great White North" but you can't. It's simply far too costly to try and populate the northern most regions of this country, so it's not going to happen. Climate and geography are always very real factors. It's not simply a case of comparing land mass to land mass. If you ever venture up to the Yukon, Nunavut, the Northwest Territories or North-Central Quebec, you will understand why there are less than 170,000 people in those areas of the country (because the north is the source of the low population density of Canada). Overall, that means that roughly forty-eight percent of Canada has 0.5% of the population - due to climate and geography.

If you look at regions based on climatic and geographic factors, Canada is underpopulated. I'm not talking about the great white north here; I'm talking about the southern Prairies and the rocky mountains where by standards anywhere else in the world, they'd have the low end of the stick in population.

Again, you are just comparing land mass to land mass. Are the U.S. Prairies underpopulated? And again, you can't disregard climate and geography as a factor.

"Underpopulated" is an opinion and not some sort of evident fact. Canada's population will gradually increase. I have not read any clear reason here for vastly increasing population - other than some personal belief that the country is underpopulated. Going beyond agriculture, it's not at all clear what you are driving at in this respect. Sure, the prairies might be underpopulated in your opinion, but who's to say your vast shipment of immigrants will want to live there? More than likely, they will go where most Canadians now live: the cities.

We're just keeping the pressure on other parts of the world and their populations.

That's your assumption. I could easily counter that massive emigration will simply result in an increased birth rate in those countries. You won't see any magical population stabilization by shifting populations around the globe. If you really believe in stabilizing population, then you will have to look to education and family planning.
 
"Only 5%" of the world's second largest nation is a lot of land. If you look at the numbers Canada has many times more arable land than any number of states, such as Germany, France, etc that have far more people.

Reading the CIA factbook, you will find out "only 18%" of the United States is arable as well.

Don't let the fact that Canada has an absolutely huge amount of arable land go unnoticed, even if it is "only" 5% of a very super-large land mass.

Climate imposes limitations on the types of crops that can be grown on that land. That is the part you are forgetting to take into consideration.
 
Climate also limits what can be grown in America's breadbasket and in Europe where there is a much more dense population than you find here in North America. The most productive land in America - Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio - all face "severe winters" by the definition many people use. The growing seasons in Ohio are similar to Ontario, the growing seasons in Iowa and Kansas aren't far off from Saskatchewan or Manitoba, especially in the high plains of Kansas. Just because this region of the world isn't at the equator and truly warm like a nation such as Brazil doesn't mean land isn't arable or usable.

It needed to be pointed out how inaccurate the idea that Canada has "little" arable land is or that it is too cold to be productive (also not true). Canada has a low percent of arable land like many nations, but being the second largest nation on the entire planet means it has more arable land in actual sq km's than the vast majority of nations of the world. Just needed to bring some light to the subject since that part was being misrepresented all because 5% was the number focused on. Canada is one of the world's bread baskets and the arable land isn't even being fully used.
 
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We also import agricultural products because we do not have permanent crops in Canada. Take a look at what we produce and export on a large scale: barley, sugar beets, oats, flax, maize, canola and rye. There are relatively few regions for growing fruits and vegetables. Sure, we could build massive pig farms to vastly increase meat production, but that does not increase the quantity of arable land - or the fact that you can't grow crops year-round in this country. Meeting the needs of just over thirty million people is one thing; doing the same for one-hundred million or more is different.
Okay, two points: Firstly, that's what has always been done and there doesn't seem to be a problem with it. Okay, so we can't grow bananas here. That doesn't mean that nobody should be living here. Again, look at the country in terms of as a part of the world. If we have less land to grow fruit and vegetables, that means we export our grains to other countries, where they can use their warmer, moister or more fertile land to grow fruits and vegetables to sell to us. I don't think there's a country in the world that produces all of the food it's people eat.
Also, vegetables are the most logical crops to grow using greenhouses, hydroponics and urban agriculture. In the valleys in BC, lack of arable land space could be offset by an abundance of water and easy power, meaning easier hydroponics and greenhouse building, along with the obvious beautiful geography and warm climate that people might find attractive.

Regardless, why is an accelerated population so desirable? Is it a power thing? Besides, what difference does immigration make over an increased birth rate? You have not clarified that. Are you expecting all new immigrants to Canada to then be celibate?
Read back in the thread please. I personally don't think that we should be growing our population for economic or political reasons, and I think the greatest benefits are socially.
More immigrants is way, way more favourable than more Canadians giving birth. By taking immigrants from other countries, you achieve the same end while at the same time not creating new mouthes to feed and giving people better lives. And it's a kind of big trend in the country that new immigrants don't give birth nearly as much as they might in their homelands. And they'd be giving birth whether they're in the country or not, so even if they don't slow natural growth rates, it's not like things are any worse off.

A higher population is good for the country's social state. It gives a density of scale that allows things like better infrastructure and specialization. It also allows you to get what many consider a desirable built form of your country with people living everywhere, in little houses in the country, small towns, bigger towns, more cities, etc. Haven't you heard all of those oh-so funny jokes that people make about the prairies being the middle of nowhere? There's still people living there, more than the Sahara or Canadian Shield (though funnily enough, not more than the Himalayas,) but it's such a low population that they can't support the social structure of things like vibrant towns, interesting and varied culture, infrastructure like public transit or efficient sanitation systems, or just a lot of people to befriend and diversify the social fabric that you interact with on a daily basis.

You are overestimating your ability to make projections about the future. For example, how do you know that the global population will stabilize? You presume that moving people from one part of the globe to another will somehow make population "remain the same." It's not at all clear that this would be the case.
So you're saying that if you take someone from China and put him in Toronto, he'll disappear off of the earth? Wow! Or perhaps taking someone from China and putting them in Toronto will make him multiply? The point is that the earth is a very finite object. Everyone on the world needs to eat. The world is producing enough food for them to eat. By taking one person on earth and putting them in another place, you're not taking away the earth's ability to sustain them.

If you accept that there is an overpopulation, then you would understand that shifting populations is not a solution to overpopulation.
If you take someone from India and put them in Canada, it's making India less crowded. Relative to the rest of the Earth, Canada is underpopulated. By stopping people from migrating to this sparsely populated country, even the southern part that's highly comparable to the Eurasian Steppe, Europe, or Japan, we're in a way reducing the livable space on Earth.

Sorry to say, but that appears to be questionable thinking. You have not defined your terms in any realistic sense. Besides, it's not an issue of comparison. You might want to avoid what you refer to as "the Great White North" but you can't. It's simply far too costly to try and populate the northern most regions of this country, so it's not going to happen. Climate and geography are always very real factors. It's not simply a case of comparing land mass to land mass. If you ever venture up to the Yukon, Nunavut, the Northwest Territories or North-Central Quebec, you will understand why there are less than 170,000 people in those areas of the country (because the north is the source of the low population density of Canada). Overall, that means that roughly forty-eight percent of Canada has 0.5% of the population - due to climate and geography.
How many times to I have to say this? I don't think people should live up north. That that region should remain untouched as possible. When I say that Canada has room for plenty of more people, I'm just talking about the most densely populated parts of our country; the Quebec-Windsor corridor, the southern Rockies in BC, the Maritimes, and the Prairies. And comparing these regions to other places on earth, comfortably populated places like Europe or South America or the Eastern US, we have a very low population density. I've pointed this out with several examples, comparing the Prairies to the Eurasian Steppe or Northern China which both have similar climates and basically the same geography, and comparing BC with Japan, which has a climate that's maybe 4 degrees warmer in the winter, but the same rocky, mountainous geography that southern BC has. Yet southern BC has fractions of the density of Japan, like 1/20th of the population even though the 3rd largest city in the country is in BC. And the prairies also have fractions of the density of the Eurasian Steppe, even though this is located in one of the most unstrategic positions on earth with very, very low industrial development.
 
Climate also limits what can be grown in America's breadbasket and in Europe where there is a much more dense population than you find here in North America. The most productive land in America - Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio - all face "severe winters" by the definition many people use. The growing seasons in Ohio are similar to Ontario, the growing seasons in Iowa and Kansas aren't far off from Saskatchewan or Manitoba, especially in the high plains of Kansas. Just because this region of the world isn't at the equator and truly warm like a nation such as Brazil doesn't mean land isn't arable or usable.

Brandon, climate and climate variability differs across the various regions of Europe - many of which have a much longer growing season than Canada and a greater diversity of agricultural products. It's worth pointing out to you that European nations also import many agricultural products. The northern states in the U.S. that you cite are similar to what occurs in Canada with regards to climate, crops and growing season, and that alone should be telling. There is no version of, for example, California or Florida in Canada. Because of the climate, there are no permanent crops in Canada.

It needed to be pointed out how inaccurate the idea that Canada has "little" arable land is or that it is too cold to be productive (also not true). Canada has a low percent of arable land like many nations, but being the second largest nation on the entire planet means it has more arable land in actual sq km's than the vast majority of nations of the world. Just needed to bring some light to the subject since that part was being misrepresented all because 5% was the number focused on. Canada is one of the world's bread baskets and the arable land isn't even being fully used.

You have failed to show how any of this is not accurate. You have also failed to recognize the reality of crop diversity (or limitation) on that limited amount of arable land due to the prevailing climate and limitations imposed by other real factors. You have also failed to note that the quality of that arable land differs greatly. You seem to treat arable land as some sort of singular quality - which is incorrect. As noted, the vast majority of arable land in Canada is used to grow wheat, barley, sugar beets, oats, flax, maize, canola and rye - all done during a limited growing season. Another very significant grass crop that is grown in Canada is hay - which is exclusively for animal consumption. It is the second largest field crop grown in Canada. Finally, the quantity of fallow land in Canada has dropped significantly over the last forty years.

I've pointed out in earlier posts that the quality and availability of productive land is key in agricultural success - which must be measured in price. You have chosen to skip that part. There were attempts in the last century to farm large areas of southern and central Ontario - with no success. Much of that land was deforested in the process (a necessity when farming), and many of these farms were eventually abandoned. Large tracts of land simply do not automatically allow for cost-effective agriculture activity - another point that you have failed to take into consideration. So before you accuse others of "misrepresenting" anything, you ought to inform yourself when attempting to make your otherwise political arguments.

Rather than questioning me, how about you support your assertion that Canadian agriculture can support the massive increases in population you are demanding. I've informed you of some very significant limitations with respect to agriculture, so your task is to indicate realistically how these are to be overcome - and not by way of any pollyanna "way in the future" excuses.
 

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