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91 King Street East (Albany Club, 25s, WZMH Architects)

... but we wouldn't have any laws without this construct, i.e. killing people is bad so we (ought to) have a law banning murder. Now there's a pretty wide spectrum between murder and french fries but in the end this is why most societies have legislative and judicial structures in place. This is why the basic construct does indeed hold 'validity', right?

And the prevailing societal positions on these 'ought-to' things do not coalesce overnight, they sort of iron themselves out (dramatically, violently) over time through conflict, debate and discourse, and it may take multiple generations or centuries for any sort of position to coalesce (if ever)....

So, to answer your question -- and a moral philosopher would do a much better job at responding than I will -- but there are plenty of other ways in which we can arrive at these conclusions about legality and illegality without resorting to this line of reasoning.

Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill of the utilitarian tradition is a good place to start to look at other ways we can deduce these things. But that's another forum.
 
I assure you that I'm making no attempts to colour my arguments as such.

By saying that developers would act responsibly out of the response they'd get from their customers if they didn't, you are. Real life has proven time and time again that if you reduce quality regulations a larger percentage of whatever is being produced will end up being sub-par. The falling glass issue is far from a typical example, for falling glass is clearly visible. Most businesses cheapen out in areas where consumers won't notice any irregularities in the short term.

I don't want to dismiss this statement out of hand. So I'll attempt to reply to it. And I'll only reply to this topic exactly once for the purposes of this discussion.

Your comment strikes me as nothing more than populist class warfare notions. It is, in fact, a broad based ad hominem attack on those who invest in, well, anything. It paints with the widest of brushes, a group of people with allusions of mal-intent, and reduces these people to profit-sucking monsters who are detached from their actions and have no pride in their work.

There are, in our world, many people like this. Some of them are CEOs, and some of them are unionized workers. But it is such a gross oversimplification of the nature of economic incentives to believe these things.

For instance: many people along this line of reasoning attest that without laws around building codes, buildings would all be put up on the cheap and they'd be collapsing left and right. But this assumes that construction companies and architects would risk their entire future reputation on such a calamity. Look at the negative reaction Lanterra has attracted from the falling glass problem. Do you think they're scrambling to fix it because of building codes? Or because of fear people won't buy condos they build in the future?

Thus, this comment is petty in the truest sense of the world. It demonizes people who are not demons. And generalizes people who are not all the same.

And with that, this is the last time I'll respond to this class warfare nonsense.

It has nothing to do with class warfare - that's your own trauma right there and I'm not too interested in that discussion for the purposes of heritage conservation. The point is that if 'the market' decides that a heritage building should be razed for development or a surface parking lot it has nothing to do at all with what's best for the city and neighbourhood, and everything to do with what's best for the pockets of a few. If government was not in charge of education and healthcare (and according to the views you have so far expressed it shouldn't be), there would be lower income neighbourhoods that would be severely deprived of these two. We don't (and shouldn't) let that happen, even though we'd all be wealthier in the short term for it.

We as a society have the responsibility to do everything in our power to ensure that money-making schemes are based around improving the quality of life of people. Private property is universally embraced not because there's something inherently truthful or logical about it, but because it tends to lead to much higher levels of well-being when it's respected.

So far your arguments are a dogmatic collection of assessments made on the premise that private property and the freedom to do whatever the hell we want is a tangible and sacred thing - when in reality it's just a tool that we use to streamline progress.

This is a statement which is almost impossible to reply to because it states the desirability of an area and the affordability of an area as an immutable relationship. I could spend the next week proving this assumption wrong. But I won't, because you have really even given an argument. You've stated this as a fact. It's not a fact. You cannot defend it as such. It is supposition and premise on which you build a spurious argument.

Go on please, I'd love to see anything at all that points to an area's affordability not being directly linked to its desirability. I do make the statement that "the price to live in X building relative to the rest of the housing market is usually a representation of the desirability of that building."

If you want to make the argument that increased density is usually beneficial because it creates supply where it is required and thus contributes to a short term amelioration of rental prices but most importantly enables people to live in a more convenient location, then I need no convincing, we are in full agreement.

But when we are talking about adding a few hundred units at the cost of an irreplaceable building that is an asset to the community, I think the common good wouldn't be served by allowing this development. Being realistic, the same number of units will eventually go up very nearby to accommodate the demand.

Nothing you say here is truly defensible. Governments work towards broad and lofty goals even if means destroying peoples lives -- the war on drugs, foreign interventions, etc. Your one-sided attack on free markets as the source of all evil, filled with men with top hats and monocles, laughing as their wage slaves sick children die from some imminently curable disease that they could afford to treat -- if ONLY they weren't so greedy -- is a caricature of markets that I've grown far to tired of debating with people who find it all too comfortable to frog march out the boogey-man of "market speculators", "profit-driven businesses" and the "upper one percent".

The free market is not the root of all evil. Human nature is the root of (what we perceive as) evil (anyway). But not all humans grow up the same, and the environment they inhabit has a lot to do with this.

People who grow up in places were gun ownership is frowned upon and highly regulated, for example, tend to own less guns and shoot less people. Those who can't see this are statistically blind. Therefore, regardless of whether I personally would want to own a gun or not, it is my duty to support the option that ends up taking less people's lives.

Likewise, a single-party system run by an enlightened few who'll guide us to prosperity through the abolition of the market sounds dandy, but in practice it does nothing of the sort and often ends up creating much larger troubles than the market ever could - so I must support a pluralist democracy that works to regulate a market.

You talk about the 1% and make references to the OCCUPY movement as if I was being dogmatic, but it is you whose views are shaped by philosophical constructs (I for one had nothing to do with that movement or those world-views).

Then again, you have places like 401 Richmond, fully run by privates, which is a much much much greater asset to the community than a condo would be on that corner. I do think it's unfair that current laws are structured so that destroying that building is more profitable than maintaining it as a centre for people, the environment, and the arts. We should be relying on more than the owner's good will to keep these resources with us - much like we prevent developers from building over parks and such. If the city must buy all heritage properties to accomplish this (and then lease them for competitive prices to people who won't demolish them) I'm all up for it, personally, but just putting regulations in place is more cost effective.

I work with goals and not with methods - whatever leads to a population of healthier, happier, more intelligent, and more sensitive individuals, that gets my support. I'd rather not pay an extra tax on alcohol, for I'm a responsible drinker and have great health, but I support the measure for it seems to empirically benefit society. Same goes for a million other things, but hey... it comes down to where you want your children to grow up.

P.S. I asked you what you would do to generate a happier society. What I should have said is, do you even care? Or do you honestly think that by just allowing people to do whatever they want we'll be happier despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary?
 
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So, to get back to the question of the putative effect of a policy of preserving older buildings... I will avoid the temptation to dwell on philosophical or aesthetic questions. I will even resist the almost irrestible impulse, when addressing a libertarian, to make snarky comments about Ayn Rand's writing style. :)

Are there enough historic buildings in Toronto that an effort to preserve some of them will have a discernible effect on the price of housing, whether rental or purchase? I can understand that a policy of preserving the historic buildings of the central districts of Paris has a measurable economic effect. It probably does drive up the price of housing. Whether it is because the policy artificially restricts supply or because it keeps the city so amazingly beautiful that it stimulates demand, I do not know and will not argue. But that is Paris. (Ahh Paris... tourists do not flock there because of the croissants or even the polite waiters. Perhaps the architecture might have something to do with it. Come to think of it, attracting tourists is an economic effect most of us would find desirable.) But, once again, all that is Paris. We are talking about Toronto.

Does preserving half a block of buildings here and a facade or two there, which is all that is happening in Hogtown, constitute enough interference with the purity of market forces to have anything but a negligible effect? In short, I doubt there is enough "protectionism" to have much of an effect one way or another.
 
As I said:

But when we are talking about adding a few hundred units at the cost of an irreplaceable building that is an asset to the community, I think the common good wouldn't be served by allowing this development. Being realistic, the same number of units will eventually go up very nearby to accommodate the demand.

This is not Washington DC (where you are not allowed to build any taller buildings because it'd detract from the aesthetics). By preventing this development from unnecessarily tearing down 2 pieces of our history we would not be making the city more expensive other than perhaps by making that particular area more desirable.

The only justification for allowing their demolition (assuming we can stop it) would be to dogmatically protect the intangible right of developers to hurt a neighbourhood unnecessarily.
 
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So, to get back to the question of the putative effect of a policy of preserving older buildings..

Are there enough historic buildings in Toronto that an effort to preserve some of them will have a discernible effect on the price of housing, whether rental or purchase? I can understand that a policy of preserving the historic buildings of the central districts of Paris has a measurable economic effect. It probably does drive up the price of housing. Whether it is because the policy artificially restricts supply or because it keeps the city so amazingly beautiful that it stimulates demand, I do not know and will not argue. But that is Paris. (Ahh Paris... tourists do not flock there because of the croissants or even the polite waiters. Perhaps the architecture might have something to do with it. Come to think of it, attracting tourists is an economic effect most of us would find desirable.) But, once again, all that is Paris. We are talking about Toronto.

Does preserving half a block of buildings here and a facade or two there, which is all that is happening in Hogtown, constitute enough interference with the purity of market forces to have anything but a negligible effect? In short, I doubt there is enough "protectionism" to have much of an effect one way or another.

Good points, which leads to the concept of "Heritage Conservation Districts", of which a few have been created in the City (Wychwood Park, Cabbagetown, South Rosedale and most recently Queen West), in which an entire neighborhood is considered worthy of preservation and protection against not only the demolition of heritage buildings but of unsympathetic new buildings. This concept exists in a number of US cities, ranging from certain neighborhoods in NY to Savannah to South Beach.

Interestingly, in the context of the recent posts about "organic" market forces, the residents of Forest Hill did not support folding the former Village into a HCD (unlike Rosedale), given that it would be an impediment on the redevelopment of their own houses (which has led to the loss of dozens of pre-war houses, including ones by Eden Smith).

http://www.toronto.ca/heritage-preservation/heritage_districts.htm
 
I really have to applaud all you guys who have argued so brilliantly and passionately (and much better certainly than I can) against Brock's dogmatic / one dimensional argument. He can quote all the statistics he wants to, but many of us have arrived at a place in life where we realize that life should be (and is) about much more than the almighty dollar and potential returns on investment. Human joy and interactions do not require lawyers and accountants to confirm their value. It must be a miserable and frustrating existence to always quanitify things in dollars and cents.

I find it curious, not to mention incongruous in Brock's argument that when it's "elite, wealthy Europeans" they are automatically bad, yet he defends "elite, wealthy developers in Toronto" without batting an eye. As others have pointed out, there is little value in this kind of black and white thinking. Life is complex and people's reasoning for doing things or choosing a place to live is not strictly based on "affordability". Some people will pay more to live in a desirable or historic neighbourhood. And again here I would point out a contradiction in Brock's argument... he tries to come across as a defender of the workings of the free market, yet the result of his vision were it carried out strictly is everyone living in an equally bland and inexpensive building in a monoculture of dull and sterile neighbourhoods. But alas, it would be affordable! Yet there would be no stratification of income levels... sounds more like a communist dystopia than free market to me.

Finally as others have pointed out, Toronto is not Tokyo or Hong Kong where there is virtually no supply of land. And there is no shortage of development currently. From my amateur observation of the condo market over the past 7 years here on UT, it's rather clear that prices are rising not because of a shortage of supply (and certainly not one cause by heritage preservation!) but because of high demand, a large percentage of which seems to be made up of speculative investors. As the market remains hot and each successive year the prices for raw materials increase what else would you expect than higher prices per sq ft ?

We are humans, not automatons... we need cities that are beautiful, vibrant and interesting to be happy - not simply cheap, generic, high density places to live. To say it again, I pity those among us who can only see life in terms of economic figures.
 
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I really have to applaud all you guys who have argued so brilliantly and passionately (and much better certainly than I can) against Brock's dogmatic / one dimensional argument. He can quote all the statistics he wants to, but many of us have arrived at a place in life where we realize that life should be (and is) about much more than the almighty dollar and potential returns on investment. Human joy and interactions do not require lawyers and accountants to confirm their value. It must be a miserable and frustrating existence to always quanitify things in dollars and cents.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. If you're not, then, um... wow.
 
Honestly, the notion that someone would call me "dogmatic" in my views based on what I've written on this thread is just insane. What is it that I've said which is dogmatic?

More importantly, what is it about the way in which you people are comporting yourselves leaves you with the self-image of being open-minded and reasonable? For god sakes, take a step back and look in a mirror.

The hostility and immediate accusations against me of having nefarious motives reminds me of debating abortion with emotionally invested pro-life activists.

Further, for the record, I can confidently say I have never attacked the motives and/or reputation of anyone here. Yet, the bunch of you seem to make a blood sport out of it with me. And I'm the source of the dogma? I sense the pot is in the process of trying very hard to call the kettle black.
 
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Also, redroom, your opening salvo in which you make clear that no statistics or arguments on my part could ever shake you from your position, you have, in effect conceded that you have excluded the possibility your position is wrong.

You have precluded that argument or debate on the point is of any use to you.

Your very words betray the thinly veiled attempt at appearing like a voice of reason and flush out the hypocrisy that lies between. To call me dogmatic, in the very same missive where you proudly display yours for the world to see is a sight to behold. It truly is.

Who else does that? Oh, right... religious fundamentalists.
 
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And as an interim step, I’m in favour of moving towards a more Swiss-style, or Scandinavian state. Big welfare state, incredible economic and civil liberties. No massive military spending, nor any kind of foreign interventionism worth speaking about. A deep secularism, and a liberal culture that promotes life experiments, and communality. Shit, if we could get that, I’d consider anything else gravy. But we don’t have that. We have militarism, bans on lightbulbs, G20 cops getting away with breaking the law, gays who are frowned upon, an attitude of hostility to foreigners and immigrants, and a generalized love of all things state. And, man, that sucks.

So do you agree with that? Because guess where the swiss/scandinavians are on the particular issue of heritage preservation...

No offense, but your posts really come across as being disconnected from reality. You really seem to think that having a little philosophy thing going counts for something, but it doesn't. There's actions and there's consequences. Actions that benefit and should be supported by society (pulling babies from puddles) should be provided with incentives. Actions that do the opposite (throwing babies in puddles) should be regulated. It's really straight forward.

Your view is dogmatic because you oppose the method of regulation in itself. You are explicitly saying that we have no business regulating heritage buildings when developers want to steal them from us. As if the fact that we don't technically own them was more important than the fact they are beneficial.

You tried to prove that demolishing stuff would be beneficial by lowering prices, but in the case of Toronto your argument is incredibly weak. Having not provided any convincing evidence whatsoever you moved on to philosophical musings on how regulation is immoral.

I defend regulation when I think it objectively makes sense, and oppose it when I think it objectively doesn't. I don't march against 'the market' or against 'the government'. Both have a place so long as we structure them to serve people and not themselves (or do the best we possibly can). My argument all along has rested on what I think is the need to structure both for the greater good, and instead you've chosen to refer to some occupy nobodies and put me in a bucket of hippies.
 

I knew there were a number of "denominations" in the Libertarian faith. It is interesting to hear that you and your friends are in a non Rand one, though I note Jaworski talks about "Randian first principles." Good, I am actually marginally sympathetic to some of your thinking. But there are, of course, several other, and larger Libertarian denominations, for whom Rand is a secular saint... as you very well know. But all that is beside the point, which you have not yet addressed.

Do you have any comments on the argument that preservationism is so limited in Toronto, as opposed to Paris, that any effectson housing prices are negligible? I am no expert on real estate and may be wrong on that... but you haven't even addressed the point.

Re the Jaworski article: I lived in Switzerland as a boy, in Geneva and have been back a number of times. I have spent a summer in Sweden, with Swedes rather than in tourist centers. The picture of those countries is a little warped. Both have a lot of regulations. The Swedes spend a higher percentage of their GDP on the military than we do. The Swiss spend a bit less, but then they require most of the young to middle age adult male population to serve for free in the military, which does tend to keep costs down. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html

That strikes me as somewhat regulatory in attitude. The Swiss are highly xenophobic and the Swedes only marginally less so, with a an active racist minority. (An aside: that's in the background of The Girl with the Dragon Tatoo trilogy.) They may be liberal and secular, with respect to church attendance, but both countries have state churches. Things are complicated.
 

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