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2018 Provincial Election Transit Promises

jcam said:
Sounds like Ford just promised to cut the gas tax by 10 cents. I think its generally a flow through to municipalities, so he's essentially playing to his base of cutting taxes, not hitting provincial jobs, but kneecapping the municipalities that use the funding for transit. I hope someone adds it up over long-term and calls it out as what it is - cutting transit spending.
Click to expand...
he promised it won't impact gas tax contributions to municipalities.

This on top of the other tax cuts he has proposed, carbon, corporate, and income, means that there are going to be some gaping holes in the budget he is going to have to find though. Infrastructure doesn't seem to be a target - but expect other services to get the brunt of it. Well, that, or another run of large deficits.
 
innsertnamehere said:
he promised it won't impact gas tax contributions to municipalities.

This on top of the other tax cuts he has proposed, carbon, corporate, and income, means that there are going to be some gaping holes in the budget he is going to have to find though. Infrastructure doesn't seem to be a target - but expect other services to get the brunt of it. Well, that, or another run of large deficits.
Click to expand...

Don't forget, he promised zero job loss in the government as well, and counts on the external auditor to find "efficiencies".

AoD
 
All these non-stop tax cut and funding announcements are going to come back to haunt him when he finally has to show the people how he is going to pay for it all while balancing the budget. People expect vote buying schemes from all politicians but there is a limit where people know that these are promises that will not be kept. People also recent politicians trying to bribe them with their own money and this is even more so with Tory supporters who are the first to lament new government spending that governments are in no financial position to be offering.
 
If someone with better economic education could enlighten me on tax cut theory.
Why does the supply demand curve not seem to apply to taxes. In my head, a lower tax rate would encourage more willing to pay, whereas a higher tax rate would encourage fewer to pay.
Whether, you have 1 taxpayer paying $100 in tax, or 100 taxpayers paying $1 the government receives the same net tax, but lets say the same 100 taxpayers are willing to pay $2, now the government now has $200 in revenue. Now, as the tax price goes up, fewer are willing/able to pay, and then net revenues slowly get reduced.
Anyway I'm just looking for enlightenment.
 
My guess is gasoline isn't that elastic - i.e. demand for it doesn't vary that much by price (price within reasonable limits - it isn't necessarily a linear relationship at extremes) in the short/medium term. In other words, you could reduce the tax and it wouldn't produce enough of an increase in consumption to make up the decline in revenue (much less surpass it due to increased consumption).

Say, you reduce the Ontario portion of the gasoline tax from approx. 20c/L to 10c/L - to make up the revenue you literally have to double gasoline consumption. That ain't going to happen - besides, there will be long term negative consequences from price decrease - do you for example really want to encourage increased inefficiency in fuel usage (SUVs) as an non-oil producing province?

AoD
 
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^ I’m not even sure that the uptick in demand has any meaning to the PC’s platform. Normally Conservatives cut taxes because they believe money will create more value if not spent by government.
So people can afford to buy more gas.....Does that enable anything that accelerates the economy or creates value? Do the PC’s think that freed-up money will go to something useful?
It’s much more simplistic: Everyone buys gas. People feel gas is expensive. A tax cut makes it cheaper. People are happy. People love Doug.
I tell ya, Dr Seuss has a more complicated story line than the Ford platform.

Be like Doug. Make people happy.

- Paul
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Don't forget, he promised zero job loss in the government as well, and counts on the external auditor to find "efficiencies".

AoD
Click to expand...
As a management consultant: efficiencies either come from getting more done with existing time & resources (reducing backlog, only if you reallocate the time saved from one task to do on another); or with a finite amount to get done, do it with less. The first doesn't save money per se (so won't achieve Fords goals), the second saves money, but because of reduced resources (which meets his goal, but not his promise).
 
Fritter said:
If someone with better economic education could enlighten me on tax cut theory.
Why does the supply demand curve not seem to apply to taxes. In my head, a lower tax rate would encourage more willing to pay, whereas a higher tax rate would encourage fewer to pay.
Whether, you have 1 taxpayer paying $100 in tax, or 100 taxpayers paying $1 the government receives the same net tax, but lets say the same 100 taxpayers are willing to pay $2, now the government now has $200 in revenue. Now, as the tax price goes up, fewer are willing/able to pay, and then net revenues slowly get reduced.
Anyway I'm just looking for enlightenment.
Click to expand...

You're describing the Laffer curve, which relates the degree of taxation to the overall amount of revenue collected.

The problem with that is that gas is a relatively small proportion of vehicle ownership costs, so vehicle miles aren't sensitive enough to gas price to see a drop in overall gas tax revenue (i.e. we are almost certainly to the left side of the Laffer curve for gas prices.) Just look at BC, people still drive despite the high price of gas there

Gas taxes are a form of user-pay system (the more you use the roads, the more gas tax you pay), which is what we want to encourage, since those who benefit most from a public service are those who contribute the most.

Overall, gas taxes are an excellent source of revenue because:
  • They disproportionately impact high income earners, who are more likely to drive and tend to drive larger vehicles.
  • They make public transit use more cost competetive with driving.
  • The incentivize the use of more fuel efficient cars (and electric vehicles) to reduce dependence on fossil fuels and to improve emissions.
  • They disincentivize the purchase of larger vehicles, which cause more wear and tear on the road.
  • They disincentivize urban sprawl by acting as a form of road pricing.
  • They exist to achieve a policy objective rather than just to raise revenue.
 
Fritter said:
If someone with better economic education could enlighten me on tax cut theory.
Why does the supply demand curve not seem to apply to taxes. In my head, a lower tax rate would encourage more willing to pay, whereas a higher tax rate would encourage fewer to pay.
Whether, you have 1 taxpayer paying $100 in tax, or 100 taxpayers paying $1 the government receives the same net tax, but lets say the same 100 taxpayers are willing to pay $2, now the government now has $200 in revenue. Now, as the tax price goes up, fewer are willing/able to pay, and then net revenues slowly get reduced.
Anyway I'm just looking for enlightenment.
Click to expand...

There is certainly a relationship with this - but it isn't a 1:1 ratio. Essentially, every dollar in government taxation does reduce spending, but not necessarily by a full dollar, maybe by $0.20. So sure, cutting taxes may increase GDP, but not at a proportionate rate that would improve government finances (the increase in taxable spending would not offset the decreased taxation rate).

There is an economic theory called the "Laffer curve" which states there is a maximum amount that a government can tax before more taxation actually decreases GDP more than the tax brings in, actually reducing government revenue when compared to a lower taxation rate. This is generally considered to be a very high taxation rate however, and is not met in many, if any, real world scenarios. What does make it relevant however is that the higher you set your taxes, the lower rate of return you will see for government revenues, especially as you approach the top of the curve.
 
crs1026 said:
^ I’m not even sure that the uptick in demand has any meaning to the PC’s platform. Normally Conservatives cut taxes because they believe money will create more value if not spent by government.
So people can afford to buy more gas.....Does that enable anything that accelerates the economy or creates value? Do the PC’s think that freed-up money will go to something useful?
It’s much more simplistic: Everyone buys gas. People feel gas is expensive. A tax cut makes it cheaper. People are happy. People love Doug.
I tell ya, Dr Seuss has a more complicated story line than the Ford platform.

Be like Doug. Make people happy.

- Paul
Click to expand...


While I agree with what you are saying about Conservative wanting lower taxes and believe that this will result in higher savings and consumption resulting a more robust economy, this is not what traditional conservatives are being offered. They are being offered tax cuts with HIGHER spending in a dizzying number of pet projects being announced. Ford is offering lower taxes but with more spending, no cuts, and a balanced budget which 90% of Grade 3 math students could tell you just doesn`t add up. He is alienating the traditional ~progressive conservative` voters he will need by being socially very conservative and a package that is financially irresponsible.
 
ssiguy2 said:
While I agree with what you are saying about Conservative wanting lower taxes and believe that this will result in higher savings and consumption resulting a more robust economy, this is not what traditional conservatives are being offered. They are being offered tax cuts with HIGHER spending in a dizzying number of pet projects being announced. Ford is offering lower taxes but with more spending, no cuts, and a balanced budget which 90% of Grade 3 math students could tell you just doesn`t add up. He is alienating the traditional ~progressive conservative` voters he will need by being socially very conservative and a package that is financially irresponsible.
Click to expand...
The result is quite simple, one of the below must go:
  • Lower Taxes
  • More Projects
  • Balanced Budget
 
Ontario Election
The Agenda with Steve Paikin
The Ontario Transportation Debate
From public transit to the safety of the province's roads, transportation is a key issue for all Ontarians. Hosted by Transport Futures at the University of Toronto's Innis Town Hall, Steve Paikin moderates a debate between the four major parties on their plans to improve transportation.

See link.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Ontario Election
The Agenda with Steve Paikin
The Ontario Transportation Debate
From public transit to the safety of the province's roads, transportation is a key issue for all Ontarians. Hosted by Transport Futures at the University of Toronto's Innis Town Hall, Steve Paikin moderates a debate between the four major parties on their plans to improve transportation.

See link.
Click to expand...
That’ll be depressing.
 
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