2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[howl]

Even when people can get a subway, people still support LRT. See Forum's Scarb Subway poll that still has a majority of Toronto supporting the LRT, even though the poll was [likely] designed to lead people to support the subway.

I think after the initial "we want a subway because subways are always better than LRTs" surge in the polls, many people are discovering the tradeoffs that come with that decision.

First of all a subway will take much longer to get built. A surface LRT can be designed, approved, built and be up-and-running in five to ten years. A subway will take fifteen to twenty years.

Second, the cost is substantially higher which means that either taxes go up or funds get diverted from other sources. "Sorry, we can't renovate that crumbling hockey arena because we spent all our money on subways". People who aren't going to use public transit think that spending extra on a subway doesn't have an affect on them, but it does. It ripples through the whole community.

Third, the type of development that will happen along each type of corridor is directly affected by the level of service. Since subways have fewer stops but carry more people the development tends to be high denisty, high-rise development concentrated around those stations; while LRT tends to equal medium density, mid-rise development spread out over the corridor more evenly. In suburban areas there tends to be a fear of heights (e.g. tall buildings) which are part and parcel of the subway alternative. Subways bring big changes to a community. With LRT the changes are more subtle, slower and less scary.

 

[Rainforest]

That same poll also was phrased in such a way that it suggested the HRT & LRT could cost the same. A fair question would have mentioned the cost of the two options.

Definitely, the fact that subway is more expensive should have been mentioned. I included it in my list of pros and cons.

The point is, the full list has some points for LRT and some points for subway. The pollsters short list missed all pro-subway points. It also missed two pro-LRT points (lower cost, and serving Centennial College), but included the third (7 stops vs 3).

Most of people randomly selected for polling, are not in the know. So, even one hint in favor of one option can skew their opinion.

 

[Rainforest]

If the LRT or streetcar is to start at Bloor and go north, then tunneling will be from Bloor to Eglinton, but if it starts at say King, tunneling would start there and run to Eglinton. At that point there are people who again will state that it might as well be a subway. Dufferin is pretty narrow to have it run at street level, at least south of Eglinton. Unless the LRT is run along the side of the road but then there is the issue of parked cars as there are houses along that stretch,

I agree, if we're going to spend the money & effort installing new streetcar tracks & overhead wires, it should always be along an exclusive ROW separated from cars.

A "proper" Dufferin streetcar / LRT is difficult and costly to build, and I would not treat it as a high priority. Corridors with existing ROWs should be utilized first.

However, if the city somehow got money that only can be spent in the Dufferin corridor ... I would think of running the streetcar in the tunnel from just south of Dufferin Mall to just north of Eglinton (Belt Line). That would take care of the most congested section of the route.

North of the Belt Line, Dufferin is wide enough for the 4 + 2 ROW lane layout.

South of the Dufferin Mall, the line could run in mixed traffic, but with all left turns from Dufferin eliminated.

 

[ehlow]

I think after the initial "we want a subway because subways are always better than LRTs" surge in the polls, many people are discovering the tradeoffs that come with that decision.

First of all a subway will take much longer to get built. A surface LRT can be designed, approved, built and be up-and-running in five to ten years. A subway will take fifteen to twenty years.

Second, the cost is substantially higher which means that either taxes go up or funds get diverted from other sources. "Sorry, we can't renovate that crumbling hockey arena because we spent all our money on subways". People who aren't going to use public transit think that spending extra on a subway doesn't have an affect on them, but it does. It ripples through the whole community.

Third, the type of development that will happen along each type of corridor is directly affected by the level of service. Since subways have fewer stops but carry more people the development tends to be high denisty, high-rise development concentrated around those stations; while LRT tends to equal medium density, mid-rise development spread out over the corridor more evenly. In suburban areas there tends to be a fear of heights (e.g. tall buildings) which are part and parcel of the subway alternative. Subways bring big changes to a community. With LRT the changes are more subtle, slower and less scary.

I agree. While some think faster is always better, sometimes you do want a slower service because the stops are closer together, and therefore more convenient to walk to. At-grade LRT is a good "in between" solution between local buses/streetcars and subway, much faster & more reliable than normal buses, but slower than subways, with stop spacing in between. Capacity is also between the two. With low-floor vehicles, at-grade stops can be cheap to build & operate, with no staff and much less elaborate than a full station, allowing many stops to be built for cheap.

The speed of actually getting something built is also an important. It's too bad Finch & Sheppard are taking forever to build due to politics.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The fastest interurban was the Red Devil, that saw service in Ohio during the 1930's. See link.

The Red Devil's commercial speed was 90 mph (145 km/h)

In 1930, a race was organized between a Red Devil and a plane. The stunt's result was that the interurban car ran at 97 mph (156 km/h) – and won.

They had a toilet, luggage compartment, and up to 44 seats.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What that poll said is that the public supported LRT for Scarborough. Most of Toronto's population is located in the Old City and North York. Places with subways. Most people are not going to visit Scarborough bar family or the mall.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

While support for the subway is strongest in Scarborough, a majority of Torontonians living in Scarborough disapprove of the subway when the cost is factored in. They want a subway, but not at that cost.

Anyways I travel to and from Scarborough every day and still dont understand this ridiculous obsession that some people have with getting subways. Some of these people act as if its some great injustice.

 

[ksun]

I agree. While some think faster is always better, sometimes you do want a slower service because the stops are closer together, and therefore more convenient to walk to. At-grade LRT is a good "in between" solution between local buses/streetcars and subway, much faster & more reliable than normal buses, but slower than subways, with stop spacing in between. Capacity is also between the two. With low-floor vehicles, at-grade stops can be cheap to build & operate, with no staff and much less elaborate than a full station, allowing many stops to be built for cheap.

The speed of actually getting something built is also an important. It's too bad Finch & Sheppard are taking forever to build due to politics.

Isn't it too early to determine LRTs will be much faster and more reliable than normal buses?
Using the 510 as an example, I find every time it is replaced by bus service due to track maintenance, the trip is almost always noticeably faster.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

.

Anyways I travel to and from Scarborough every day and still dont understand this ridiculous obsession that some people have with getting subways. Some of these people act as if its some great injustice.

Like your obsession with Sheppard East being LRT and nothing else.

Anyway, many of us in Scarborough are not in the mood to go back to the LRT plan as many (i.e. the Ontario Liberals) are committed to building the subway. Let's just get on with building it! Geez

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Isn't it too early to determine LRTs will be much faster and more reliable than normal buses?
Using the 510 as an example, I find every time it is replaced by bus service due to track maintenance, the trip is almost always noticeably faster.

I take the 510 every day and I cannot agree with that at all. I absolutely dread when the 510 is replaced by busses. They're loud, uncomfortable, slow, they get stuck in traffic. Ughh

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Like your obsession with Sheppard East being LRT and nothing else.

Anyway, many of us in Scarborough are not in the mood to go back to the LRT plan as many (i.e. the Ontario Liberals) are committed to building the subway. Let's just get on with building it! Geez

I agree with the sentiment, but how do you respond to the fact that switching back to the LRT now would still result in it opening before the subway?

 

[ksun]

I take the 510 every day and I cannot agree with that at all. I absolutely dread when the 510 is replaced by busses. They're loud, uncomfortable, slow, they get stuck in traffic. Ughh

My experience was based on weekend rides, so maybe it is different.
I can appreciate the fact buses may be more crowded and less comfortable. But why are they slower? Maybe due to the crowdedness and thus longer time to getting on/off?

I want to suggest again some routes should remove some stops at least during rush hours to speed things up. I doubt people with mobility problems really have to use the system during that time, and other patrons will be more than happy to walk 2-3 more minutes to save 10-15 minutes in total.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Like your obsession with Sheppard East being LRT and nothing else.

Well yea.. The reports clearly show that the LRT is the better option across the board. And I wouldn't say that I'm obsessed with SELRT being LRT; I'll change my position the moment I see evidence showing that the SELRT isn't the best option for the corridor. I did the same thing when I dropped support for the Line 2 extension.

Anyway, many of us in Scarborough are not in the mood to go back to the LRT plan as many (i.e. the Ontario Liberals) are committed to building the subway. Let's just get on with building it! Geez

I honestly wish it were that easy. It's highly questionable whether or not the currently allocated funds will be enough. Chances are that we'll have to look for more funding for the eastern extension of Line 2 if we want it built.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My experience was based on weekend rides, so maybe it is different.
I can appreciate the fact buses may be more crowded and less comfortable. But why are they slower? Maybe due to the crowdedness and thus longer time to getting on/off?

Well for one, they're not in a protected ROW. That would be the biggest contributor. I also suspect that boarding times are longer on the busses do to crowding. The speed delta between bus and streetcar on Spadina will become even wider once the LFLRVs, with all door boarding, are fully deployed on the line.

 

[travis3000]

I like the Smart Track idea. Sure it's not perfect but IMO it's a damn good place to start. Plus, Liberty Village NEEDS reliable public transportation into the core. I think out of the plans proposed, the Smart Track proposal has the most chance of actually going somewhere. Considering Wynne got elected on a transportation/infrastructure agenda, it's my opinion that she would be totally into partnering with the city on a plan like this.