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2007 Ontario Election: MMP Referendum

I just don't see the problem with the current system. We're voting for our local rep not the government, and the candidate that wins the most votes gets to be the rep for the area. The guy that gets the most votes wins - that sounds like perfect democracy to me.
 
I think that this failed MMP campaign should be followed up with a move to introduce a new system that is not as dramatic a change, is easily understood by anybody, and would bring about many of the same benefits without most of the drawbacks: preferential balloting. If you choose, you simply rank your choices, and if your first choice isn't elected, they add your second, and then subsequent choices to those respective candidates' vote totals until one gets over 50%. Or if you want, you can vote exactly the same way as you do today.
 
even though i like FTP for my own selfish reasons...


The counter argument is that people vote for thier party anway...


however every election many MPP's lose becuase of thier own actions even if they won by like 10000 votes last time...
 
I think that this failed MMP campaign should be followed up with a move to introduce a new system that is not as dramatic a change, is easily understood by anybody, and would bring about many of the same benefits without most of the drawbacks: preferential balloting.

I would certainly be open to that, but I think the sense is that the issue is dead for quite a while. The Star even said first-past-the-post is "not broken" in a recent editorial, which I think most could find fault with, no matter their views on MMP, which I will admit has faults.

I'd like to propose my complex alternative to MMP that is based on a regional proportional system that addresses criticisms about geographic representation and party lists somewhat.

It's a local/regional rep system, where similar to MMP, you vote twice, and for every 10 ridings or so, 2-3 seats per 10 ridings are allocated to bring the regional representation closer to the actual vote. The regional perty list members would be drawn from the riding candidates, so at least there's some local input. If a party has a strong candidate, but lives in a riding with low support for that party, then that candidate could go to the top of the regional list - I guess the party, or the collection of local riding associations could determine the rankings.

I figure there would be 9 regions, with Toronto, due to its size (22.5 ridings versus 10-11 for others), getting 5 or 6 reps, the others getting 3 reps.

There would be 29 more seats if the number of ridings stayed the same. If the riding numbers were to drop a bit, I could see 8 regions with 3 reps each, except Toronto, with 5. One could even up the regional representation quickly to deal with fast growth, like K-W or Peel or York.

Toronto (23 ridings, 5 regional seats)
Peel-Halton (11 ridings, 3 regional seats)
York-Durham-Northumberland-Victoria (12 ridings, 3 regional seats)
etc.

For example, say Peel-Halton-Dufferin has 11 local ridings, and 9 go Liberal 2 go PC. The Liberals get 45% of the popular vote. The Tories get 30%, the NDP 15%, other 10%. The PCs would be entitled to 2 more seats, the NDP would grab a seat, and be the NDP rep for Peel-Dufferin.

Toronto, with 23 (really 22.5) ridings right now, would be entitled to 5 additional members. With 19 (83% of seats) Liberals and 4 NDP (17% of seats) candidates, no others. The Liberals got 45%, PC 25%, NDP 21%, Greens 8% of popular vote in the 23 ridings. The PCs would be entitled to 4 seats (and John Tory would get a seat in this scenerio), and the Greens 1 (giving a seat to Frank De Jong, running in Davenport as well, but losing the local vote to Mr. Burns, I mean Mr. Ruprecht).

So Toronto would go from 19-0-4-0 to 19-4-4-1. The Liberals would still have a 67% majority of the seats (despite getting 45% of the vote), but it would be less lopsided. City Hall would be rid of David Shiner (who would presumably be second or third on the Toronto list), and all four party leaders would be in Queen's Park.

The NDP would end up with 18 out of 136 seats, Liberals would get 75, Conservatives 39 perhaps, Greens 4. There would still be a Liberal majority (albeit smaller - 57% of seats instead of 66%), all other factors remaining the same.

I figure McGuinty would still have a majority under this system, but much less. The Greens would probably have 2-3 seats (Toronto, one in a hypothetical West-Central "region" where they came close in Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound, maybe one in Ottawa "region")
 
I think that this failed MMP campaign should be followed up with a move to introduce a new system that is not as dramatic a change, is easily understood by anybody, and would bring about many of the same benefits without most of the drawbacks: preferential balloting. If you choose, you simply rank your choices, and if your first choice isn't elected, they add your second, and then subsequent choices to those respective candidates' vote totals until one gets over 50%. Or if you want, you can vote exactly the same way as you do today.

The Liberals should like this electoral scheme as they are the second choice of a huge percentage of Ontarians. Of course, I would vote Green first, Liberal second (and I know many, many others that would as well) so I suppose you'd have to take that with a grain of salt.

Preferential balloting is what I was hoping the citizen's assembly would propose. The biggest problems with our electoral system is that voting is highly strategic with three or more parties (you vote for the party with the best chance of beating the party you dislike most), and vote splitting between similar parties letting more radical parties sneak through to win (ie, a case where 31% vote Liberal, 29% vote NDP, 5% vote Green and 35% vote PC, while perhaps the Liberals' second choice might be NDP and vice versa). It doesn't achieve proportionality, but it tends to be closer, and it rewards more centrist government and would likely lead to slight majorities or minorities rather than guaranteeing wide-open minorities.
 
considering the liberals came in third in only about ten ridings, that would actually helped them...
 
I'd like to propose my complex alternative to MMP that is based on a regional proportional system that addresses criticisms about geographic representation and party lists somewhat.

I've been proposing this type of a system for years and already proposed it on page 3 in this thread. The guy who runs DemocraticSpace proposed and presented this system to the Citizen's Assembly. He's explanation is here.
 
Wow. I didn't quite understand it when you mentioned it, and I thought my idea was slightly different. I guess not, which means that you deserve your credit, and that it's an idea that has been proposed separately.

Though I did my math differently and figured that the Liberals would get the majority anyway, but not such the lopsided result we got. Interesting!
 
I would have prefered STV over any other, but I think the system is too smart for us... Though I would have preferred MMP over FPTP which I consider the most deeply flawed electoral system of all, along with closed list PR.
 
Hey, just abolish elections altogether and declare David Onley to be Supreme Emperor of Ontariariario
 
I just don't see the problem with the current system. We're voting for our local rep not the government, and the candidate that wins the most votes gets to be the rep for the area. The guy that gets the most votes wins - that sounds like perfect democracy to me.

Sorry Beez, you're just plain wrong here. Would you agree that you think that in a democracy people should vote sincerely, which means they should vote for the candidate they most support? FPTP elections, as a mechanism/game (the mathematical concept), have voters acting in such a way as to vote for a less preferred candidate than their favourite, as voting for a less preferred candidate helps to ensure an even less preferred candidate doesn't win. This operates on the same principle as auctions where bidders don't have proper incentives to bid their honest valuation of an item. Ebay works because they chose a slightly more clever auction structure than takes away this incentive to bid contrary to your valuation of an item. We need to accomplish the same thing with our electoral system.

Therefore, FPTP is about as far as you can reasonably get from a 'democratic' voting system....
 
Are you then suggesting that we don't live in a democracy?

The voting system has little to do with how people vote. And besides, strategic voting exists in all forms of balloting.
 
We're kind of missing an important point here. It's assumed that somehow people should always vote for exactly what and who they want. The problem is that compromises are sometimes necessary. I'd like to vote for a party that will cut taxes, reduce the deficit, increase social spending, and solve the infrastructure deficit. Unfortunately, that's impossible, and as long as we keep giving people the idea that they deserve to have all their dreams come true at no cost, we can't have a decent government. In a democratic system, you're going to have to join a large group of people to form a government, and as in any large group, you're not going to agree with everything the group decides.
 

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