Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Amare]

Just want to take a brief moment to note that we're all going to be potentially severely screwed with Acciona being selected. I knew that name rang a bell, because they've been involved in all of these messes which have had significant issues:

Herb Gray Parkway (Windsor Essex Parkway):

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/all-herb-gray-parkway-girders-by-freyssinet-to-be-replaced-1.2325566

Ontario government admits mistakes in Herb Gray Parkway construction

Cost overruns and oversight with the Herb Gray Parkway project were discussed in Queen's Park again today as Windsor-Tecumseh MPP Percy Hatfield charged that the government has made major mistakes in its construction.

windsor.ctvnews.ca

Windsor Parkway concessionaire gets fined for delays | Infrastructure Finance & Investment

Jim Lyons, Windsor Construction Association (WCA) executive director, stated:

www.infrapppworld.com

Walterdale Bridge:

Walterdale Bridge still cost Edmonton $155M, even after contractor paid damages for delays - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

Edmonton taxpayers paid full price for the Walterdale Bridge, despite fines that were levied against the contractor following major delays in the project.

globalnews.ca

Site C Dam:

Site C dam to be delayed a year, more than $5B over budget, B.C. says | Globalnews.ca

The project is now expected to be completed in 2025, a year after its original completion date.

globalnews.ca

Site C dam delayed, costs jump to $16-billion

Premier says its too late to go back despite project challenges

www.theglobeandmail.com

Broadway Skytrain Extension

Broadway Subway’s revised service date disappears from project reports

Total project completion was last listed as being March 30, 2026

www.biv.com

And for fun, things got so bad in Vancouver with the North Shore Wastewater Treatment Plant project that they had to fire Acciona:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/company-ousted-from-1b-north-shore-wastewater-treatment-project-suing-metro-vancouver-1.6404421

Edited to account for Windsor Essex Parkway/Herb Gray Parkway

 

[Steve X]

Herb Gray Parkway and Windsor Essex Parkway is the same thing

Herb Gray Parkway:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/all-herb-gray-parkway-girders-by-freyssinet-to-be-replaced-1.2325566

Ontario government admits mistakes in Herb Gray Parkway construction

Cost overruns and oversight with the Herb Gray Parkway project were discussed in Queen's Park again today as Windsor-Tecumseh MPP Percy Hatfield charged that the government has made major mistakes in its construction.

windsor.ctvnews.ca

Windsor Essex Parkway

Windsor Parkway concessionaire gets fined for delays | Infrastructure Finance & Investment

Jim Lyons, Windsor Construction Association (WCA) executive director, stated:

www.infrapppworld.com

 

[officedweller]

I don't expect the average person will notice any difference other than that one piece is little longer than the rest.

It probably doesn't make a noticeable difference to engineers either as every span between pylons is a bridge, and no span is unusually difficult. The entire elevated section is made of contiguous bridges of various lengths and heights.

The bridge/elevated definition change is probably for budget estimation purposes. The longer/taller span will require some additional support.

On SkyTrain they can also be "special structures" if they are made of a different material (ie. steel box girder instead of concrete box girder). There may also be an arch introduced into the concrete box girder, which makes it look just like a bridge!
This is at Braid Station in New Westminster, BC:

 

[officedweller]

Before:

View attachment 547244

After:
View attachment 547245


The real shame is the last photo where the river curves around. The bridge won't go across there. They just cut all those trees down so they have room to work or stage materials and equipment. Necessary I guess, but even with replanting those trees won't be like that again until 2050 or 2060.

It's also Winter.
The views of the valley from the train will be amazing after the line is built - much nicer than going down the middle of a street.
Given the station placement, routing the guideway would not have brought the line closer to any passengers,
it would just have the Nimbys complaining about overshadowing the sidewalks.

 

[officedweller]

I find this curious. Even before the line was routed through the valley, it only had 2 stations in the area, one at Overlea and Thorncliffe Park Drive, and one at Don Mills and Gateway Blvd (North). Those 2 stations are still in the same place, the only thing that changed is the route that the train takes between them. There was never going to be a station at Don Mills and Overlea, even when the line simply followed the streets.

Agreed!
PS - this was my predicted route well before it was announced.

 

[hawc]

Just want to take a brief moment to note that we're all going to be potentially severely screwed with Acciona being selected. I knew that name rang a bell, because they've been involved in all of these messes which have had significant issues:

Herb Gray Parkway (Windsor Essex Parkway):

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/all-herb-gray-parkway-girders-by-freyssinet-to-be-replaced-1.2325566

Ontario government admits mistakes in Herb Gray Parkway construction

Cost overruns and oversight with the Herb Gray Parkway project were discussed in Queen's Park again today as Windsor-Tecumseh MPP Percy Hatfield charged that the government has made major mistakes in its construction.

windsor.ctvnews.ca

Windsor Parkway concessionaire gets fined for delays | Infrastructure Finance & Investment

Jim Lyons, Windsor Construction Association (WCA) executive director, stated:

www.infrapppworld.com

Walterdale Bridge:

Walterdale Bridge still cost Edmonton $155M, even after contractor paid damages for delays - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

Edmonton taxpayers paid full price for the Walterdale Bridge, despite fines that were levied against the contractor following major delays in the project.

globalnews.ca

Site C Dam:

Site C dam to be delayed a year, more than $5B over budget, B.C. says | Globalnews.ca

The project is now expected to be completed in 2025, a year after its original completion date.

globalnews.ca

Site C dam delayed, costs jump to $16-billion

Premier says its too late to go back despite project challenges

www.theglobeandmail.com

Broadway Skytrain Extension

Broadway Subway’s revised service date disappears from project reports

Total project completion was last listed as being March 30, 2026

www.biv.com

And for fun, things got so bad in Vancouver with the North Shore Wastewater Treatment Plant project that they had to fire Acciona:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/company-ousted-from-1b-north-shore-wastewater-treatment-project-suing-metro-vancouver-1.6404421

Edited to account for Windsor Essex Parkway/Herb Gray Parkway

So... then why was Acciona chosen?

 

[thaivic]

So... then why was Acciona chosen?

Probably due to them being the lowest bidder for the project. If the contract was awarded to a higher bidder a lot of people would be screaming that someone is on the take. You can't exclude someone from bidding due to their reputation unless they are banned from bidding on the project.

 

[cplchanb]

Probably due to them being the lowest bidder for the project. If the contract was awarded to a higher bidder a lot of people would be screaming that someone is on the take. You can't exclude someone from bidding due to their reputation unless they are banned from bidding on the project.

Just a cop out from govt procurement. with amount of time and money spent on tendering assessment they couldve easily done their homework, disqualified Acconia based on their long track record of bad performance and cost overruns and be able to justify to the public why the second cheapest option was selected. yea you cant exclude them from bidding but you can damn well not pick them with a good reason, and their past history of gross incompetence and firings is a very good reason. that is unless they undercut the next lowest bid by so much that any cost overruns would still be lower. Still, time is money and with their track record of delays, that is already a huge red flag on their competence.

 

[turbanplanner]

The problem is its discussions like these that are partly responsible to us having this massive 30 year transit deficit in the first place (not even remotely the sole perpetrator but it is a factor), where we have to pour our heart and soul and have community consultation over every small tree that needs to be shutdown. For many of us transit advocates its even more annoying since in many parts of the US it is very much the main reason for transit projects getting culled, stripped down, and delayed because everyone feels the need to sue transit agencies because it's going to destroy a handful of trees.

Furthermore it becomes really difficult to take these environmental arguments seriously when you're comparing a small strip of chopped down trees to WORLD WAR 1 BELGIUM, an event that I don't want to post pictures of in this forum.

So we should burry our heads in the sand because people aren't worth consulting

 

[micheal_can]

Just a cop out from govt procurement. with amount of time and money spent on tendering assessment they couldve easily done their homework, disqualified Acconia based on their long track record of bad performance and cost overruns and be able to justify to the public why the second cheapest option was selected. yea you cant exclude them from bidding but you can damn well not pick them with a good reason, and their past history of gross incompetence and firings is a very good reason. that is unless they undercut the next lowest bid by so much that any cost overruns would still be lower. Still, time is money and with their track record of delays, that is already a huge red flag on their competence.

It would be good if the governments were allowed to do that. The problem then becomes a legal one that we could see governments end up in court over disallowing companies from bidding or winning when they were the lowest bid. I do think it should be done, but understand why.

So we should burry our heads in the sand because people aren't worth consulting

Public input and consultation is important, but sometimes it becomes the barrier to any progress. Remember, NIMBY exists among other things. This issue with the forest is NIMBYism at its finest.

 

[cplchanb]

It would be good if the governments were allowed to do that. The problem then becomes a legal one that we could see governments end up in court over disallowing companies from bidding or winning when they were the lowest bid. I do think it should be done, but understand why.

Doesnt technical merit count for a large chunk? if anything someone can go in and undercut by 10% and as long as they meet the minimums they get the job? spineless politicians enabling mediocre performances by contractors. Id bet thats partly why CTS and the ECT project is so in the dumps right now.

 

[micheal_can]

Doesnt technical merit count for a large chunk? if anything someone can go in and undercut by 10% and as long as they meet the minimums they get the job? spineless politicians enabling mediocre performances by contractors. Id bet thats partly why CTS and the ECT project is so in the dumps right now.

You would think so, but no. The biggest thing is still the dollar amount. TBH if we went by technical merit, most companies would not get any work.

 

[ARG1]

So we should burry our heads in the sand because people aren't worth consulting

its not that there should be no consultation whatsoever, but rather that there needs to be a massive rethink on this continent on how and for what consulting is done. As it stands, consulting is something that is done during work hours where the only people that can attend are retirees that don't have weekday commitments, and often carry views that favour enforcing existing status quos, whilst offering feedback on engineering decisions that they frankly have no qualifications to give.

In turn, this means that "consulting" just devolves into giving a massive soapbox for NIMBYs to stand on and give feedback that often doesn't align with the views of the local population. An easy example of this would be the quagmire that is transit planning in LA, with the sepulveda line mess being a prime example. Despite the scoping period returning data that 93% of residents support building the line as Heavy Rail, the project has a serious risk of being built as the awful monorail because local SOHA and Bel-Air NIMBY's have done a great job politicking in favour of the monorail through equity arguments, threats of lawsuits, harassment of metro employees, and spreading nonsense BS that reads like facebook level conspiracy theories. No joke, Fred Rosen (the former CEO of ticketmaster) spent months spreading complete nonsense like "A TBM digging under Bel-Air would create a Tsunami-like Tidal Wave in the local reservoir" (I'm paraphrasing here).

And look, I'm not going to claim that there is no place for consultation because there's an obvious need for it. There is a need to have checks and balances for the government to make sure that it doesn't get too disconnected from regular citizen needs and result in bulldozing local neighbourhoods to build a 12 lane highway. I am for the most part sympathetic to "Don't Tread on Me" Ideas, but its also important to have clear limitations especially in dire ecological/environmental circumstances where we need to build public transit to minimize our carbon emissions, and to add capacity for the millions of immigrants we invite to Canada each year. The last thing we need is crucial projects getting cancelled or delayed because of people like this: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/a-...cle_a4a16eec-07b2-525b-930e-67836ae24962.html

 

[micheal_can]

its not that there should be no consultation whatsoever, but rather that there needs to be a massive rethink on this continent on how and for what consulting is done. As it stands, consulting is something that is done during work hours where the only people that can attend are retirees that don't have weekday commitments, and often carry views that favour enforcing existing status quos, whilst offering feedback on engineering decisions that they frankly have no qualifications to give.

In turn, this means that "consulting" just devolves into giving a massive soapbox for NIMBYs to stand on and give feedback that often doesn't align with the views of the local population. An easy example of this would be the quagmire that is transit planning in LA, with the sepulveda line mess being a prime example. Despite the scoping period returning data that 93% of residents support building the line as Heavy Rail, the project has a serious risk of being built as the awful monorail because local SOHA and Bel-Air NIMBY's have done a great job politicking in favour of the monorail through equity arguments, threats of lawsuits, harassment of metro employees, and spreading nonsense BS that reads like facebook level conspiracy theories. No joke, Fred Rosen (the former CEO of ticketmaster) spent months spreading complete nonsense like "A TBM digging under Bel-Air would create a Tsunami-like Tidal Wave in the local reservoir" (I'm paraphrasing here). View attachment 547597

And look, I'm not going to claim that there is no place for consultation because there's an obvious need for it. There is a need to have checks and balances for the government to make sure that it doesn't get too disconnected from regular citizen needs and result in bulldozing local neighbourhoods to build a 12 lane highway. I am for the most part sympathetic to "Don't Tread on Me" Ideas, but its also important to have clear limitations especially in dire ecological/environmental circumstances where we need to build public transit to minimize our carbon emissions, and to add capacity for the millions of immigrants we invite to Canada each year. The last thing we need is crucial projects getting cancelled or delayed because of people like this: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/a-...cle_a4a16eec-07b2-525b-930e-67836ae24962.html

The problem with consulting is they get overtime if they work outside "office hours". Maybe that is something that also needs to end.

 

[adys123]

The problem with consulting is they get overtime if they work outside "office hours". Maybe that is something that also needs to end.

I'm not sure where you're getting that information, but it is definitely not universal. Hours are scoped in the workplan for public consultations at base rate even the ones held in evenings.